Song

[trainerjet]

Reading the spirited debate ongoing on this thread, as an outsider, I see holes in both side's arguments. However, the largest hole seems to be the General's fixation with Air Tran's "hubs". Any industry observer can clearly see that Air Tran is focusing all future growth in 3 areas, none of which even remotely suggests a new "hub". On the contrary, they are moving away from the hub concept. They are adding frequency to existing markets, they are adding flights to their "focus" cities (with no intention of making them "hubs"), and they are moving to more point-to-point service. All of which will, more than likely, serve them well.

I believe that Song may well have some negative impact on jetBlue, but until proven otherwise, I believe it will have a much larger negative impact on Delta.

 

[General Lee]

Trainerjet,

Why is Song having a negative impact on Delta? Delta has put Song on routes that will thrive and take market share from Jetblue. But hey, Song has only just started, so we should wait and see how they do. From what I have heard it has done very well. As far as hurting Delta, it is actually helping Delta. Song frees up seats that normally might be used to connect through ATL or CVG, so we can fill those seats with passengers connecting through one of our hubs. For example, if a passenger wants a low fare from BOS--TPA, they could either fly nonstop on Song or fly thru ATL and then onto TPA. By flying nonstop on Song, that leaves that seat from ATL-TPA open, allowing Delta to charge someone more money in Peoria who wants to go to TPA thru ATL. The communities with no LCC service, like Peoria and Des Moines, have more expensive tickets because that is the only way they are getting to TPA from those cities. It's all about keeping the fares higher through the hubs, and allowing the cheaper fares to go nonstop on Song, with a good experience to keep them from going to Jetblue or Southwest.

As far as Airtran going from point to point, that is good and that is sort of what Song is up to. Airtran really doesn't have a choice in the matter, since ATL gate space is limited now and expansion is also limited. Airtran's current point to point strategy is not affecting Delta---they have added a lot of city pairs that are below our radar screen --like MCO--DAY on Saturdays, LGA--Akron, LGA--Newport News, and BWI--Fort Meyers. Good for them.

SWA/FO,

First of all, Ty flies for Airtran, not Jetblue. Secondly,
Song's entertainment (when brought on line fully in OCT) factor might eat away at some of your growth, too. The fares will be about the same, and for longer flights out of MCO, some passengers might choose to fly back into BOS instead of your Manchester, NH because of the better planes, better food, better entertainment, and better frequent flyer program. We shall see, but adding more LCC's with a better product is not good for you either. Hey, we got this idea from Jetblue, and we saw the need to fight rather than retreat. We won't be replacing all of mainline with Song because we don't have to. The huge hub passengers mainly come from smaller towns that are brought in by our huge feed system comprising of RJ's and smaller mainline jets. We aren't diluting our product, we are just creating a buffer to affect the LCC's. We shall see if entertainment and perks wins out in the end.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flying Freddie]

Ty,
Is there any truth that Joe Leonard is hinting for pay cuts from the Pilot group? Just asking, not trying to get anyone upset.

 

[trainerjet]

General,

I didn't say Song was having a negative impact on Delta. If that's what you read, that's not what I meant. What I was saying is that I think that Song has the potential to have more of a negative impact on Delta than it does on jetBlue. Just my opinion.

Ty,

It seems that Flaming Freddie is at it again. I would simply ignore him.

 

[General Lee]

Trainerjet,

Well, our management doesn't think so, and Fred Reid was quoted in saying that he hopes to expand the presence of Song. I don't think he thinks there will be a problem, and he has all of the "numbers." I think they want to do whatever possible to stop Jetblue's growth and marketshare. I think they see the great product Jetblue offers, and wants to copy it. Atleast they are being proactive here, unlike other Majors. We shall see.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[trainerjet]

General,

I will admit there is something to be said for being proactive. Like you say, we will see. I wish you good luck. I hope things turn around for everyone, and everyone sees better days ahead.

 

[SWA/FO]

Did I say Ty works for jetBlue? no. I said "let 'em have it Ty"

In time SWA will be in GA. Its only a matter of time.

I just wonder about all this attention DAL is giving to jetBlue while Air Tran is growing in their backyard. Looks like a two front war to me? Lots of promises made about Song's TV's...I hope they can deliver by Oct.?

Has DAL lost market share in SLC to SWA, jetBlue & Frontier? yep.

 

[Blue Dude]

I think they want to do whatever possible to stop Jetblue's growth and marketshare. I think they see the great product Jetblue offers, and wants to copy it. Atleast they are being proactive here, unlike other Majors.

Your first sentence says it all. I think that's exactly what Delta's motivation is. It sure as heck isn't making a profit; that's only incidental to your main goal. Your second sentence describes how you intend to go about it. Which makes your third sentence contradictory. This is not proactive. This is the same old, same old: try to kill off a troublesome competitor to preserve your markets. "Proactive" means being innovative. Taking JetBlue's model and putting a different paint job on the airplane isn't proactive, it's just more aggressive than the other majors can be at the moment.

Your flaw is in thinking that JetBlue will have to sit there and take it. I think you're in for a surprise. This may cost you far more than it costs us.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I think Song will be successful IF it differentiates itself as a new airline, separate from Delta. Instead, they're confusing customers who show up booking Delta Flight 2451 JFK-PBI and wonder why their plane is Lime Green. Then they receive outstanding service from the inflight crewmembers and wonder, well, why can't the rest of Delta be like this??? The kicker, after all the song and dance from the inflight crewmembers, their show is washed by the flight deck crew who remind all passengers that the Song flight is flown by professional Delta pilots.

 

[General Lee]

SWA/FO,

Hmmmm. It was interesting that you had Ty and jetblue in the same sentence. Maybe I misunderstood you...?? So, Southwest is coming to GA, huh? Maybe Savanah or Macon, but probably not ATL. Sorry Herb and Company, but there are no more gates in ATL for you---and it will be years until another terminal is built. You can have Macon.

Yes, we know Airtran is in our backyard, and they have been doing well lately, which is good for them. But, they have very little room to expand anymore. Yes, they will be starting some A320 service (via Ryan Air) in the near future, but will have to give up some of their 717 space in the process. Maybe you aren't familiar with ATL, but Airtran has 1/2 of the C concourse, (the other half swarmed by ASA/Comair), and the very end tip of the D Concourse for it's Air Wisconsin RJ's. There really isn't any more room. They might try to get some gates at the E concourse, but that has customs and I think the airport authority would rather have mainly 777's and 767ER's there. As far as Airtran expanding their point to point and small mini-hub service at BWI etc, I think they should go right ahead. Their BWI mini-hub is probably affecting you guys at Southwest more than it is affecting us. We know Airtran is in ATL, and we respect them. It is just that they are at a loss when it comes to extra expansion. We on the other hand can swap things around and move a 737 from here to there and stick a 757 into that slot etc. We are adding ATL--HNL service on a 767-400 on Aug. 1st for example. We added that larger plane by probably moving a 757 out of ATL and putting it on the Song network. We have that flexibility. Airtran doesn't have enough extra gates to add A320's and keep the same number of 717's or DC-9's at the current gates. I doubt we will sell them any gate space. We are handling that "front" fairly well in this "war" as you call it.

Have we lost market share in SLC you ask? Probably a bit. Southwest has come in and now competes with us on SLC--LAX, LAS, OAK (Skywest competes on that one), PHX (Skywest again---although my friends have told me they have jumped on some of those and they were 1/2 full), BOI, RNO, PDX, and SEA. I think Southwest is doing fine on those routes, but Delta has major connection traffic from all corners, and the last time I flew in to SLC everything seemed pretty full. Frontier is really not a factor, becasue we have more flights to DEN from SLC than they do. Jetblue has almost no affect on us in SLC. They have one late night flight from JFK (that returns as an all nighter back to JFK) and one flight to Long Beach. I have heard that they will be cutting that LGB flight. I am pretty sure that Delta is still the major player at SLC, with help from Skywest ofcourse. Southwest might be a player there, but not as much as we are.

See you in Georgia SWA/FO---someday??? Come jump on us and see the wonderful people of ATL!!! (PS--unfortunately we do not fly naked---and that is a good thing, trust me)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SWA/FO]

I've jumped on you guys before... Met some very nice folks. The F/A even made us ice cream sundaes (PDX-CVG).

Rode in on the ORF van early in the morning with a DAL crew, Capt. was way cool, FO was tired (West Coast guy), didn't talk much. One F/A was an NFL football junkie - I loved it!!!

In fact my first flight, ever was on Delta.

I just asked because some passengers ask us about ATL and somebody mentioned our loads out of SLC have been good.

Just trying to jump into some discussion...

 

[General Lee]

SWA/FO,

I am glad they were nice to you. Most of our employees are nice and actually care about people's comfort. The new ones at Song had to go through an "audition" to get hired over there, and for less money at that. The ones I have seen on Song were fun and not "old and cranky." I bet the guys you rode in the van with were either LAX based or SLC based on the 757---and if it was an early van--I bet they were tired. As far as the SLC loads for you, I am not really sure but I bet you are doing well out there. Your competition keeps our management in check---without you they would probably have all RJ's out there and charge an arm and a leg for fares. And, I don't know about Southwest going into ATL, primarily due to the real lack of gate space. But, I am sure the town of Macon would love for you to start a small hub there, and it is fairly close to ATL so who knows???

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cardinal]

I said against LCC's that are making money, Champ.

Well obviously Legend eventually ran out of equity. Yet we have no way of knowing what the outcome would have been had the 800 pound gorilla not ran internally subsidized 56 seat all first class service with a killer loyalty program on top of Legends network. They may well have had an effective model, but they were unable to execute it. Since jetBlue is public, it's easier to see that their model works, and as yet large scale predation hasn't occured. Time will tell. Anything can be killed, it's just a matter of how much cash need be expended to do get the job done, Chief.

 

[Ty Webb]

I don;t have to do CDO's., but thanks all the same. See, I work for a company that is growing. I hired on AFTER 9/11 and I never sat reserve. In fact, after a year and a half, I am well above the middle of the FO seniority list, which means I have a very sweet schedule . . . . I average 17 days off, and the most recent captain upgrades went to guys who hired on 6 months before me . . . . so don;t cry any tears for me, Lee.

Your airline, on the otherhand, better start looking for new areas to start hubs, because ATL is already capped for you.

Yeah, with two unused gates, ATL is really "capped"for us. Give me a break. Seems to me we have identified some low-hanging fruit to be a wiser use of resources for us at this particular point in our growth . . . but that's the advantage in being a LCC- we know how to identify an opportunity to MAKE money, and we move quickly. Who knows where you will see us next . . . . I hope it is CVG.

Let me know when you do the same, "General".
Bye Bye---General Lee [/B]

 

[CU@OSHKOSH]

General Lee,

I would not refer to anyone who is as personally greedy as Leo Mullin as "genius".

Just my opinion.

 

[flx757]

Maybe you should sit down in your down time between your continuous duty overnights to Ft. lauderdale and review the history of airlines and the economic cycles they go through.

General Lee,

I know you directed this remark to Ty Webb, in an effort I suppose, to disparage his schedule. I guess you view this as some sort of a negative. For what it's worth, I don't have to do CDOs either. I choose to. Consder 12 CDOs per month; one leg out, one leg in. No multiple exposure to the ATL delay machine. That equates to at least 18 days off per month and home every day. Also, I don't do any with less than 7:30 between flights, with some over 8 hours. I never, ever hear from scheduling. Ever. There is nothing they can do to my schedule. No draft. No junior manning. Nothing.

Just keep spreading the word about my horrible CDO life. Please. I'd hate for others to find out just how good I actually have it.

Sorry for the interruption. Now you all may resume the fight.

 

[General Lee]

Ty Webb, (Or Mr. "I drive a PT Cruiser")

I like the "Genital Ree" name. I sort of understand the first part. Anyways, so you guys have 2 unused gates at ATL? Wow! Sounds like you have a lot of room to grow there, but then again you guys are "fast" and able to leap and jump on a single bound.... Not in ATL. So, you want to try CVG? Go for it. Cinci is not a huge town with a lot going on, but rather a good gateway for us between Coasts. If you want to go in there and stir up some trouble or something---go ahead. I don't think there is a lot of extra gate space there too that we don't use. But, go right ahead. You guys are running out of room at a lot of airports. I'm trying to think of places with a lot of new or open terminal space.....Hmmmm.. COS with the demise of another LCC West PAC. DFW might have some room---ummm, nope. Midway, nope. New York, nope. SLC, nope. Looks like you guys might have to buy some room, like we are currently doing in BOS and JFK---we have huge NEW terminals going up there, even in this "poor" economic time we are having. (Yeah, right...why are we still building terminals??) Do you guys have the cash to build a new terminal somewhere? Do you have an extra $500 million or so?

You don't have to do CDO, huh? Good for you. Neither do I. I remember doing them way back in the regional days, and somebody told me your company had them. I wasn't really making fun of them because some people really love them, and they get paid more to do less, and sleep when they get home and have more time with the kids. The best we can do here in ATL to stay and see our family more is to fly daily turns to the Carribean---ATL--St. Thomas, San Juan, and Saturday service to Curacao and St. Maarten, and also throw in a Phoenix and Mexico City turn daily.(obviously not in the Carribean) I don't make fun of people's schedules because I know plenty that would take any schedule right now.

Well Ty, my main point to you was to stop slamming our furloughed pilots (like FlyDelta jets and others). Don't tell them what to do in their "down time." Feel fortunate that you have a good job. I have never disputed that your job at Airtran wasn't a good one. Giving me your opinion on what you think will happen to Song and Delta is fine. Everyone has an opinion, and this forum welcomes that, I think.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Networ-King]

From SWA F/O

I've jumped on you guys before... Met some very nice folks. The F/A even made us ice cream sundaes (PDX-CVG).

Rode in on the ORF van early in the morning with a DAL crew, Capt. was way cool, FO was tired (West Coast guy), didn't talk much. One F/A was an NFL football junkie - I loved it!!!

In fact my first flight, ever was on Delta.

I just asked because some passengers ask us about ATL and somebody mentioned our loads out of SLC have been good.

Just trying to jump into some discussion...


Hey Buddy,

That right there is the definition of ..... drum roll please......

"FLAME BATE"-----------------> Please.... continue your ....ahem... discussion now.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Ty,

While it is very nice of the General to defend me, please don't feel the need to temper any one of your posts. This forum is pretty low on my list of things I care about, and the opinion of any individual poster is even lower!

However, I am interested in a reply to my last post, whenever you get the time.

 

[SWA/FO]

Net-worKing,

Its just getting harder and harder to keep up with this board. Seems I'm running out of time. I've decided to "loadshed".

I guess, since everything I say is "FLAME BATE" maybe I should take a break from this board for awhile. I really don't know how this board will survive with a "senior member" like me going on a hiatus.

I really enjoyed talking with all you folks. Some of the best professionals around, willing to share info. with the many members of this forum.

Until next time America,

SWA / FO (aka: Flame Bait)

 

[General Lee]

SWA/FO,

You are always allowed to give your opinion. Don't let Net-working stop you. The only time I get mad at somebody (Ty Webb) is when they bash furloughed pilots on what they should be doing during their "down time."

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Ty Webb]

Originally posted by General Lee The only time I get mad at somebody (Ty Webb) is when they bash furloughed pilots on what they should be doing during their "down time."


I didn't "bash" anyone who was furloughed. I also didn't coddle anyone who was furloughed. I treated him like I would anyone else . . . . I'm sure that he is capable of defending himself- he doesn't need you to do it for him.

The poster had made a few statements that indicated a lack of any knowlege of basic business principles . . . so I suggested that he educate himself on the subject before posting more of the same.

BTW, I'm not sure I get the PT Cruiser comment. I take it you like them . . . I could see you in one, probably a purple one, with a little rainbow triangle sticker, maybe?

I have owned three convertibles, including a '69 Firebird convertible . . . . but my favorite vehicle was probably my old Jeep Grand Wagoneer 4x4, the kind that looked like an old Scout . . . . with wood paneling, overstuffed leather and courdoroy seats, it was like driving a Lazy Boy recliner down the highway . . . . now that, that was a vehicle.

 

[Mugs]

Ty Webb seems to be the forum industry expert. When asked why he insists that UAL will liquidate, he states that he basis it on "their recent financials." I doubt Ty is much of an expert in matters involving corporate finance and bankruptcy law. What he does seem to be good at is finding links to pictures of UAL airplanes crashing into the water (to prove his liquidation theory I guess) and using 6th grade twists on words (like the Genital Ree thing above). How profound. Why admit to being a 717 F/O and then come on here and act like that? There are ways to debate and look like a professional for the airline that you come on here and represent.

 

[Ty Webb]

You know, Mugs, your post got me thinking.

When I first started posting here 6 years ago, it was worthwhile. I was attempting to transiton back into aviation from the business world I had entered during the last aviation depression. I got a lot of good information here, and got up to speed quickly.

After I made Captain on the bizjets, I came back here to share my experience and contacts, and to give back a little.

After a few years of that, I began looking for the next step- whcih turned out to be AirTran. I returend again, to give back more- to try to help others who wanted to come here or to learn about the transition from corporate to airline. Along the way, i liked to have some fun, bantering around with different people and exchanging opinions. Once in the while, these exchanges could get pretty spirited . .. but I always saw them as humorous. And I'll bet that I would like 95% of the people on this board, were I to meet them in person- just like life.

Butyour post, Mugs, made me realize that I have run my course here. I think I have given back what I have gotten from it, and it is time to move on.

I'll be back from time to time, I am sure. Good luck to all.

 

[FLB717]

Ty...I respect a man who knows when banter has become a few notches lower. Bravo. I hope others (you know who you are) will follow your guide and let us all return to real issues and not the "My CEO can beat up you CEO" stuff.

 

[Dennis Miller]

I want everyone on this board to immediately stop posting until you have listened to “One Tin Soldier” 20 times and began behaving more like Billy Jack. The pre ice-cream store Billy when he was more of a pacificator.

 

[General Lee]

Well, I was going to respond to Ty Webb but I guess he has moved on to bigger and better things. The PT Cruiser comment was centered toward the people who buy PT Cruisers----guys who are very insecure. That counts me out already---HA! ( I thought it was funny) I am glad that he would treat everybody the same in every situation----lack of feelings toward people who are in unfortunate situations shows he's tough---like a Marine. Good for him.

MUGS,

I also didn't really get that "Genital Ree" deal. About the UAL liquidation, I think a lot of people thought they were going down for good, but it only proves that an airline can lose two planes to terrorism, go through a horrible bankruptcy, have SARS attack 1/2 of their INTL flying, and still be alive. We at Delta aren't even close to that, so I guess that means we too shall survive.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Mugs]

Ty,

I am pretty sure that I remember you from the old flightinfo board, which is where I last posted. You brought good content and debate to the board back then, and you still do that today. It is easy to get caught up in a debate and lash out a little bit. We are all guilty of that at one time or another. I don't think you have run your course here at all. Keep providing the information and insight that you always have. If anything, the information you can supply now is more important than ever given your unique position working for one of the few profitable airlines that are hiring, expanding, and upgrading pilots.

Thanks for your contributions, past and future. You never know who your information might help out.....especially these days.

 

[Mugs]

Thanks General Lee. I believe that Delta will come out of this mess in good shape. As for us UAL folks, we'll just keep clawing our way out of this deep hole we are in. The mission is pretty clear: find a way out of the hole or they will throw the dirt in on top of us. Success is not 100% guaranteed, but I think we are starting to get a grip on the rope leading out. We will come out quite humbled in the end. Something UAL needed a good dose of from top to bottom, I have to admit.

Signing off after diverting the Song thread.

Mugs.

 

[Flying Freddie]

If UAL were to go down, it would show that the terrorists have won. I hope all the airlines survive because it is good for U.S.