Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Something Bush refused to do...

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Timebuilder said:
Tom Ridge was a great governor. I'd like to have him back, but he has more important work to do.

John Ashcroft understands what we are up against, and I am happy that he is attorney general.

I have lost no freedoms under this administration.

If you think I have, tell me, so I will know.

TB, while I think I understand your trust and belief in GWB, Ashcroft, et.al. Let's suppose GWB and staff are all honorable people, but in 2004 Hillary gets elected. Would you be at peace with someone like her having an unchecked balance of power at her disposal all in the name of peace and security? The laws now in place (compliments of the Bush administration) have now potentially paved the way for any (future) corrupt administration to abuse their power more than Slick Willie could ever have hoped for. Sorry I don't share the same trust and enthusiasm for the current administration. It's all a professional match - a staged and fixed event and we're the easily duped fans! Keepers of odd knowledge I guess.
 
It's all a professional match - a staged and fixed event and we're the easily duped fans!

I don't have that lack of faith in the American people. More than ever we are an informed electorate. At least outside of major cities.
 
Did you witness GW Bush performing any National Guard Service between May 1972 and October 1973, in either Alabama or Texas? If so, you could be eligible for thousands of dollars in unclaimed reward money!!
 
"And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well - our president George W. Bush. We need them there." - Clark in remarks delivered at the Pulaski County GOP Lincoln Day Dinner in Little Rock, Arkansas on May 11, 2001
Wesley Clark...War criminal?
http://www.zpub.com/un/nato_wanted.jpg
 
Wesley Clark...War criminal?

C'mon. That's the kind of crap that the communist party puts out on handbills in NYC.

Dieterly:

I guess they know where to kind GW, and have for thirty years. I also guess he wasn't really absent, or he would have been charged with a crime. Rest assured that the dems would have plastered this all over the ABC news if it were even close to being true.

Good try though.
 
http://www.insightmag.com/news/525789.html

Clark's tanks roll against Americans...American people died.
Clark Tanks Rolled Into Mount Carmel
Posted Oct. 15, 2003

By Kelly Patricia O Meara

As the commanding officer at Fort Hood, Clark could have refused to allow the use of U.S. military might to end the standoff at Waco.


Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark wants to be president and, given that he is a man who has worn many hats during his controversial rise through the ranks, many believe this qualifies him for the top political job. Clark has worn the hat of first-in-his-class graduate of West Point, Rhodes scholar, decorated Vietnam combat veteran, White House fellow, four-star general and even Supreme Commander of NATO - a post from which he was relieved. There is one hat, though, that despite lingering suspicions and accusations Clark neither has confirmed nor denied wearing - a hat that many Americans might find very disturbing for a military man seeking the top civilian post in the U.S. government without first registering with either political party or being so much as elected dog catcher.

In his recently published book Winning Modern Wars, Clark proclaims that the "American way was not to rely on coercion and hard pressure but on persuasion and shared vision," which has been taken by Democratic Party doves to explain why the retired general has been an outspoken critic of President George W. Bush's handling of the war in Iraq. But while Clark may prefer a "kinder, gentler" persuasion in dealing with U.S. enemies abroad, critics are saying his actions at home should be reviewed before deciding whether he is qualified to be trusted with America's civil liberties.

For example, there is the 1993 siege of David Koresh's Mount Carmel commune in Waco, Texas, where four law-enforcement officers were killed and nearly 90 civilians - men, women and children - massacred by being shot and/or burned alive. Those seeking an investigation of his part in the Waco outrage say that Clark not only played a hidden role in the military-style assault on the Branch Davidians, but easily could have refused to participate in what was a clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act that bars use of the U.S. military for civilian law-enforcement activities.

Although Clark never publicly has discussed his role in the attack on the Branch Davidians and did not respond to Insight's requests for an interview to discuss his role at Waco, there are indisputable facts that confirm he had knowledge of the grim plans to bring the standoff to an end. Between August 1992 and April 1994, Clark was commander of the 1st Cavalry Division of the Army's III Corps at Fort Hood, Texas. According to a report by the U.S. Department of the Treasury, the list of military personnel and equipment used at Waco included: 15 active-duty military personnel, 13 Texas National Guard personnel, nine Bradley fighting vehicles, five combat-engineer vehicles, one tank-retrieval vehicle and two M1A1 Abrams tanks. Additionally, Fort Hood reportedly was used for much of the training for the bloody attack on the Davidians and their children.

Based on the fact that military equipment from Fort Hood was used in the siege and that training was provided there, say critics, it is clear the commanding officer of the 1st Cavalry had direct knowledge of the attack and, more likely than not, was involved in the tactical planning.

West Point graduate Joseph Mehrten Jr. tells Insight that, "Clark had to have knowledge about the plan because there is no way anyone could have gotten combat vehicles off that base without his okay. The M1A1 Abrams armor is classified 'Secret,' and maybe even 'Top Secret,' and if it was deployed as muscle for something like Waco there would have been National Firearms Act weapons issues. Each of these M1A1 Abrams vehicles is armed with a 125-millimeter cannon, a 50-caliber machine gun and two 30-caliber machine guns, which are all very heavily controlled items, requiring controls much like a chain of legal custody. It is of critical importance that such vehicles could not have been moved for use at Waco without Clark's knowledge."

Mehrten continues, "This is something that the general staff would know in the daily situation report or manning reports. Clark would have known and, given his obsession for micromanagement, there is probably someone who can place him on the scene. He wouldn't have been able to resist going in. At the very least there is no way he didn't have knowledge."

So what if the general was aware that his military equipment was being used against American civilians, and so what if he even participated in the planning? Wasn't he just following orders from above? "To follow that order," explains Mehrten, "is to follow a blatantly illegal order of a kind every West Point officer knows is a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. Clark's obligation was to say, 'No, I'm not going to do it.' Look, Clark went to the same institution I did and at West Point we had extensive instruction in military ethics and issues concerning how one avoids obeying an illegal military order. It is drilled into our heads from the earliest days as cadets that the 'I-was-just-following-orders' defense isn't necessarily a good one."

He had the juice to say no, concludes Mehrten, "and he could have and should have. But if he had done so he probably wouldn't have gotten his next star. There is a reason critics say this man was not recommended by the military for that fourth star but got it anyway because of political clout, just as there is a reason that Chief of Staff Hugh Shelton brought him home early from Europe because of 'character and integrity issues.' Sure the Bradley vehicle could have been operated by a civilian, but that's unlikely. This military equipment is very specialized and would be virtually useless in the hands of untrained operators. But just using military equipment against civilians is running way afoul of Posse Comitatus. Legally, if he were involved in it and there were active-duty units where these armored vehicles came from, then it is a clear violation of the act. Clark's command at the time, 1st Cavalry, is an active-duty federal division and it is my understanding that these vehicles used at Waco were from Fort Hood - his command."

Tom Fitton, president of the Washington-based Judicial Watch, believes Clark has some questions to answer. "The question for Clark," explains Finton, "is a fair one in terms of corruption. Many Americans still are troubled by what occurred at Waco, and we're very interested in his role. Many people are going to ask what are his views of the force [attorney general] Janet Reno used at Waco and they'll want to know if he, were he to become president of the United States, would authorize that kind of force again. Specifically, was Gen. Clark comfortable allowing forces and equipment under his command to participate in a police raid or, at best, a hostage situation? People are going to want to know these things."

Michael McNulty, an investigative journalist and Oscar nominee for his documentary, Waco: The Rules of Engagement, tells Insight that, "From the standpoint of what went on that operation had military fingerprints all over it. The chain of command being what it is, Clark had some responsibility, but to what degree we really don't know."

McNulty takes a deep breath and then says, "My military sources tell me that Clark and his second in command got the communication from then-governor of Texas Ann Richards, who wanted help with Waco. At that point Clark or [Gen. Peter J.] Schoomaker should have asked themselves, 'Religious community? Civilians, they want our tanks?' and hung up the phone. Clark had to be involved at the tactical level, he had to know what the tactical plan was and he'd have to approve it. No one has ever asked these questions of this man. Clark wasn't even asked to testify before the congressional committee investigating the circumstances of Waco. For me the real question is one of character and, because of the cover-up that's gone on with Waco, it could even be a question of criminality. From the get-go, when the assignment came down from III Corps, which is the primary Army unit at Fort Hood and his division, Wesley Clark had the opportunity to say 'Hey, wait a minute folks, we're not gonna give tanks and personnel to the FBI to use on civilians!'"

True, explains McNulty, "Clark didn't do this in a vacuum. Whatever he did he at least is guilty of being a good German - following orders. He was in a position to put his foot down and say no. It was his men, his equipment and his command. Everything that happened at Waco, from the beginning, the U.S. military was involved - including the strategic and tactical planning that went on from Feb. 29 to April 19. Why weren't the guys making the decisions debriefed and questioned by the committee? I would hope that Clark would answer these questions now, the sooner the better, because it appears that Waco is about to follow him into the political arena full force."
 
That's a very long post to say that Clark was following up on a request from the Clinton Justice Department.


Waco was an inept act by a clueless attorney general. Innocent people died. This is a part of the Clinton legacy, and was unnecessary.
 
That's a very long post to say that Clark was following up on a request from the Clinton Justice Department.
Title 18 US Code Sec. 1385. - Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both
 
Apparently, Congress did not agree with this interpretation of the Act.

Is it possible that this use was authorized, or that only the hardware was utilized? I had always understood that this act was a reference to troops rather than hardware.
 
•The U.S. military was far more involved at Waco than previously admitted. At the press conference in July 1996 releasing the House report on Waco, I asked co-chairmen Bill Zelliff and Bill McCollum how much cooperation they had received from federal agencies. They said the cooperation had been pretty good—except for the Pentagon, which had refused to give them almost any information.

•Former CIA officer Gene Cullen told the Dallas Morning News in late August that Delta Force commandos were "present, up front and close" in tanks in the final day's action at Waco. Delta members bragged to him of their role when he subsequently served with them in Europe. James B. Francis, Jr., chairman of the Texas Department of Public Safety, confirmed there is evidence that the Delta Force participated in the final assault against the Davidians.

•The "national security" excuse repeatedly invoked for not turning over key files to congressional investigators is wearing thin. According to the Dallas Morning News, "The military has estimated that at least 6,000 pages of its documents are classified, and CIA, FBI, Treasury, ATF [Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms] and Justice Department officials have indicated that their agencies have a number of secret documents relating to the standoff." In September, the Texas Department of Public Safety blocked the release of a report listing all the evidence it collected after the fire because the information contained military secrets. If there's so much to hide, was the military testing new weapons on American citizens during the standoff?
 
If there's so much to hide, was the military testing new weapons on American citizens during the standoff?

Hey, I hear a helicopter....it's a black helicopter!!!!
 
Re: Wesley Clark is an A$$hole

Jim said:
I
This guy has no integrity or compassion. He does not care about anyone or anything but himself. Some of the traits of great military leaders are protecting their subordinates, giving them credit, and getting them promoted. General Clark ruined more careers covering his own butt than any general or flag officer I know. He could care less about their getting promoted and was a master at taking credit for their work while simultaneously making it look like they were all f'd-up and only his greatnessed turned a pile of $hit into a pot of gold.

The vast majority of those who worked for General Clark hated and diepised him. It would be a sad day for this country if he got elected President.

Not to be cynical, but I think the above traits are all too common in many politicians (as well as business leaders) today. "It's all about ME". I've heard similar comments from other former military folks about Gen. Clark as well.
 
Typhoon1244 said:
...making a chemtrail! :D
Timebuilder, Typhoon -

Your making light of the murders of those children and their parents, etc. at Waco is truly low. The US Federal government (BATF, FBI, US Army, etc) murdered them for one or more of three reasons.

1. Revenge for the loss of the original BATF officers who attempted to storm their complex with handguns, jumpboots, cattle trailers and aluminum ladders (not very well thought out).

2. Irritated that anyone would challenge *their* authority, so they burned and shot them.

3. It was sporting to get *live* targets, so they could use their equipment. Ref pic link below.

http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/guyontank.jpg

there were black helicopters there, Timebuilder. US Hueys. Spotting fire against the people (children) inside.

There was "black" armor there too, Timebuilder. Used to carry troops, er, I mean police up to the building and fire ~400 incindiary CS gas cannisters inside the wood frame building.

And finally, yes, Typhoon, there were chemtrails at Waco. Those of the cs gas used against the kids in that building. It's accepted knowledge that there was more than enough cs gas pumped into the buildings to kill those kids.

Try and picture the hell those 41 mothers and children went though in that concrete room....

The cs gas would have made breathing and vision near impossible. As the heat from the incindiary cs gas rounds caught the building on fire, now we have smoke making vision and breathing near totally impossible. How are they going to get out?

From one of the forensic reports -

"There was a particular instance where all that remained
was the arm and hand of a mother clasping a small child's hand
and the remains of an arm."

I've seen pictures of a 6 yr old who died not from flames, not from bullets or crushing concrete or structure. She died from cs gas inhallation. Would be glad to PM you the link. It's quite disturbing.

It's the same stuff that's prohibited by international war crimes law in 1969. Can you imagine how that small child you've got pictured as your avitar would handle breathing that stuff?! I have kids and it tears me up to this our government did this to kids just like mine.

pretty flippant, heartless comments TB, Typhoon.
 
Last edited:
Your making light of the murders of those chilren and their parents, etc. in Waco is truly low.

I don't think you quite understand.

The Black Helicopters reference is a nod to the conspiracy theory crowd: chemtrails, black helicopters, aliens meeting with the Pope or President (depending on which supermarket checkout paper you read) and other such stuff. I realize that some helicopters are actually painted black, such as the Customs helicopter they display every year at sun n fun.

I don't think that anyone, particularly me, is unmoved by the tragedy of Waco. Your list of reasons is interesting, but faniciful. What is the personal responsibility? Let's look.

First, anyone who reads the Bible is to use discernment. This includes asking oneself if they have become involved in "cult" activity. Since Koresh had identified himself as the returned Messiah, this group was clearly a cult. In that situation, having realized this, the only correct decision is to take your children and GET OUT.

Second, anyone who shoots at BATF agents deserves to be taking fire himself. More than any others, this person or persons bear the responsibility for the deaths of the Branch Dividians.

You don't shoot at law enforcement and expect a calm and rational discussion that goes on endlessly. If you are a nut to begin with, and it is clear that Koresh was a nut on all counts, then you can expect a shooting of agents to bring a rain of fire on you. Maybe this is what this particular nut wanted. Maybe this could have been handled better from the beginning, taking Koresh into custody when he went into town. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

It is a tragedy that people joined his group, that they shot at agents, that they refused to leave when ordered, and that they died.

The only ones who died are those who did not exit the compound when ordered to do so. Period.
 
Last edited:
Timebuilder said:
The only ones who died are those who did not exit the compound when ordered to do so. Period.
So, the children got what they deserved. I've heard others who believe this. heartless and not rational.
 
So, the children got what they deserved.

Apparently, you aren't listening.

Who is responsible for the children?

Their parents.

The parents are 100% responsible for their children's deaths if they could have avoided them by coming out or sending their children out. They could have overpowered Koresh and carried him out bound and gagged. They could have don a great many things.

None of this has to do with the children "getting what they deserved".

That is absurd.
 
Flydood

there were black helicopters there, Timebuilder. US Hueys. Spotting fire against the people (children) inside.

Look guys, those UH-1s were from my unit. There were NO US Army pilots on board those helicopters. The FBI came and picked up one for Cyops (to make lots of noise), crashed it into some wires, and then came and got another one. All we got was a call from III Corp telling us we had to give the helicopters to the FBI. The morons that flew them out of Hood AAF didnt even call the tower to depart. They just got in (no preflight) and went. I got the phone call from the tower telling me such. There was no spotting fire against the people inside from any US military personnel. The three Chinooks that you may remember seeing on CNN the day the fire broke out were piloted by US Army pilots. They were configured with 24 litters each to carry patients to DFW med center. How do I know this? I was there! The equipment used was military, but Clark was only the 1st Cav Division Commander. The III Corp Commander (his boss) would have been the one that got the call. Clark could not have acted on his own accord. Furthermore, the equipment was directed by a higher command to give the required equipment needed to the FBI and ATF. There was never any talk in any meeting that even insinuated that a military person would be used to fire upon any civillian. That is why Federal agents were killed and no military. The only involvement with regards to the APC's and tanks were the drivers and crew members to operate them. Not there weapons systems. They were using some of the then classified thermal imagry systems, etc. the tanks had to offer.
I am in no way condoning what happend there, but the media has a way with stretching the truth to substantiate their agenda.
:(
 
Thanks, Tim. This exactly what I expected to be the case, not a Posse Comatatus violation.
 
Timebuilder said:
Apparently, you aren't listening.
I'm listening very well, TB. You're just not convincing me.

The kids were there. Everyone knew it. The BATF came in there, in part to "protect the abused children". Remember?! I do. That's why the jack-booted thugs came blazing in with their guns drawn and shooting... "to protect the kids".

Someone must forgot why they were there... you think?

If ol' David Koresh was so dangerous and elusive, then why didn't they just arrest him whne he made his numerous shopping trips to Waco? the local sheriff would have been just fine for that job... but the federal boys wouldn't have got to suit up and make the raid, would they?!

Tim 47SIP -

I don't hold any ill will against anyone except the federal police, and the gutless Texas Rangers who covered for them. Thanks for your service.
 
Last edited:

Latest resources

Back
Top