Someone's gotta say it...

[Guitar Guy]

......

 

[Mooneymite]

As for me, it's jeans or shorts, frequently with flip flops, for the concierge lounge, where I frequently make a meal out of the hors d'ourves. You can wear shorts and flip flops and still not look like a slob. Of course, I can name some people that can wear suit and tie and still be a slob.

Once again, this thread wasn't started to comment on how one should dress, act, or hold one's teacup. I was objecting to the fact that pilots were not being told about the concierge lounge because some pilots were viewed as not knowing how to act/dress by the hotel management.

As long as you aren't identifiable as a pilot, or at least a pilot of my company...have at it, you're on your own. However, when your dress/conduct begin to errode our quality of life, we all need to pay attention.

Here's a thought. When you go into the concierge lounge, look around. If you are the worst dressed individual and you have the worst manners, you might be dragging your buddies down with you.

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks for posting the articles; I read both and found them interesting and informative. It does help explain why I've noticed that some public places in my city have gotten more casual. I noted with interest that there is an effort to pull dress standards up again. It certainly puts the lounge discussion in the greater context of a societal issue, and made me realize that the division is linked, many times, to age. I wonder if that applies to those of us posting here? I'm in the mid 40s conservative crowd. I found the following quotes noteworthy:

More than 31% of women said flip-flops were the single "must have" item for work this summer. But many companies disagree. The dress code says no beach wear and flip-flops are considered beach wear," .... I bought them for my daughter for casual summer wear; she understands that they are against the (public) school dress code.

Style gurus warn that flip-flops... could be harmful to a career. I do realize that in the lounge you may be off duty, but on the road you still represent the company and your fellow pilots. I do "get it" that some of you don't like impressions being tied to dress but for many people that is the way it is.

Last June, the Northwestern University's champion women's lacrosse team was widely criticized for wearing flip-flops when they visited the White House and met President Bush. Please tell me that you wouldn't go that far in your idea of comfort.

How employees look can affect how they're perceived: ...49% said they run the risk of being taken less seriously, according to a 2006 survey by online job service TheLadders.com. The survey was conducted in August 2006 and included 2,243 executives. Clients, future clients, etc are probably in this category and are the ones some pilots hope to make a favorable impression on. When it comes to pay, too many pilots are already having a problem getting treated like a professional. They want to improve the situation--not add to it. There's also the need to adhere to the hotel's standards.

But a backlash is brewing: The number of employers allowing casual dress days every day has plunged from 53% in 2002 to a new low of 38%. The reason for the return to more dressed-up attire is, in part, because of the confusion generated by business casual standards. Should flip-flops be allowed? This thread is just one of many such conversations taking place around the country.

Younger employees are more likely to push the envelope, rankling more veteran (polite term for "older"... ) generations who have long worked in offices where ties and skirts were expected ... It wouldn't surprise me if the more casual pilots were younger than the conservative group. If so, it helps explain how the thread evolved.

"It started with casual Fridays and got out of hand," says June Webb, in Alexandria, Va., a fashion consultant. "Now companies are starting to clamp down a little bit. It sounds as though the hotels may be following that lead. Might be best to note the wind direction is changing; besides, what are you going to wear now that it's turning winter...

 

[glasspilot]

"I do realize that in the lounge you may be off duty, but on the road you still represent the company and your fellow pilots. I do "get it" that some of you don't like impressions being tied to dress but for many people that is the way it is."


Do you not understand how this looks like you're talking down to people?

You're not the boss of me.

 

[netjetwife]

No, I don't. Nothing could be farther from my mind. I'm just trying to explain a common perspective. I agree w/the fashion and HR consultants that a person's style of dress can affect the perception others have of their professionalism. I also agree that it is unfortunate if the actions/choices of a few have a negative impact on their peers. Apparently, that has been the case in at least one hotel already.

Many pilots in the industry have made huge sacrifices to help raise the bar. Why is it too much to ASK that pilots avoid drawing negative attention to themselves in the concierge lounge when their manners/dress cause their fellow pilots to be unwelcome there? What's wrong with quietly blending in with the crowd? Why object to posts that ask others to show more consideration? Lots of pilots from different companies enjoy the lounge perk, my husband included. They all have a collective interest in seeing it remain available.

Out of curiosity, how would you feel if a hotel employee discouraged you from visiting the concierge lounge because some pilots before you displeased the hotel management with the way they acted and/or dressed? It's a normal reaction to wish they had behaved/dressed differently and trying to raise awareness of the situation is proactive.

 

[Diesel]

Lots of pilots from different companies enjoy the lounge perk, my husband included. They all have a collective interest in seeing it remain available.

Its not a perk, same as crew food, it's one way the hotel uses to keeps loyal travelers using the hotel chain.

Sure the hotels could do away with the lounges. Problem is they know, like the airlines know with upgrades, that it breeds brand loyalty.

 

[glasspilot]

No, I don't. Nothing could be farther from my mind. I'm just trying to explain a common perspective. I agree w/the fashion and HR consultants that a person's style of dress can affect the perception others have of their professionalism. I also agree that it is unfortunate if the actions/choices of a few have a negative impact on their peers. Apparently, that has been the case in at least one hotel already.

Many pilots in the industry have made huge sacrifices to help raise the bar. Why is it too much to ASK that pilots avoid drawing negative attention to themselves in the concierge lounge when their manners/dress cause their fellow pilots to be unwelcome there? What's wrong with quietly blending in with the crowd? Why object to posts that ask others to show more consideration? Lots of pilots from different companies enjoy the lounge perk, my husband included. They all have a collective interest in seeing it remain available.

Out of curiosity, how would you feel if a hotel employee discouraged you from visiting the concierge lounge because some pilots before you displeased the hotel management with the way they acted and/or dressed? It's a normal reaction to wish they had behaved/dressed differently and trying to raise awareness of the situation is proactive.

First of all let's remember that you have already stated that what you think is "appropriate" is Dockers and a Polo shirt. Let me be clear...there is no way on Gods green earth that I am EVER going to pack Dockers and a Polo shirt on the chance that I may have the opportunity to visit a Hilton lounge. Do you understand that? I, and every other pilot out there, live out of 1 carry on bag for an entire week. Plus I need to pack at least 3 uniforms and all the associated underwear to last a week. Put some street clothes in there and I ensure you there is no room for your Dockers and Polos. I'd bet fewer than 3 pilots in a thousand would argue with that...yet you go on.

Second, you mention that you agree with fashion and HR consultants? I'm thinking they are not actual people with whom you've met, but instead simply read some article that talked about dress for success. Why would you take their words and apply them to the very narrow subject of off duty pilots in a Hilton lounge and give them more weight and credibility than an actual off duty pilot in a Hilton lounge?

Third, you go on about the massive sacrifices of pilots before. Come freaking on. I'm glad NetJets held out for a great contract, I'm glad ALPA has made great strides getting safety equipment like TCAS on our aircraft, I'm glad the soldiers in Normandy made the ultimate sacrifice, I'm glad George Washington led victoriously, I'm glad the Pilgrims set sail, I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad. We, dear wife, are talking about a Hilton lounge here.

Fourth, how would I feel? It's a ridiculous question so I'll answer it with another ridiculous question: How would you feel if someone shop lifted from your local grocery store and management decided to not let any more people in the store? You might starve! That's a much bigger concern than me relaxing in a lounge.

 

[Mooneymite]

Let me be clear...there is no way on Gods green earth that I am EVER going to pack Dockers and a Polo shirt on the chance that I may have the opportunity to visit a Hilton lounge. Do you understand that? I, and every other pilot out there, live out of 1 carry on bag for an entire week. [/COLOR]

The point is not that every pilot must carry any particular wardrobe for his leisure time.
The point is that if you do not have appropriate clothing, you shouldn't bring down the entire pilot group's image by acting/dressing inappropriately in a given situation. If the patrons of a concierge lounge are dressed in business causal and an individual is wearing torn cut-offs, an FBO tee shirt and flip-flops, he should refrain from using that facility. Simple.

As an adjunct, I disagree that business casual takes up significantly more room in my suitcase than other casual wear. However, what you carry and wear is your business. It doesn't affect me.

 

[netjetwife]

First of all let's remember that you have already stated that what you think is "appropriate" is Dockers and a Polo shirt. What I stated was my understanding of what "business casual" is, thinking that the hotels expected patrons of the c/lounge to dress that way. The articles posted show that there is currently a lot of confusion on what exactly business casual is because the standard has been lowered lately. With some big companies taking measures to pull standards back up it will be interesting to see if the change becomes noticeable out in public. I, and every other pilot out there, live out of 1 carry on bag for an entire week. As the discussion evolved, I posted that my husband wears dark jeans in nice condition and tells me that blends in fine. So I suggested that just making sure a pilot is fitting in with other guests in the c/lounge is what is critical. Pilots have posted the same opinion.
Second, you mention that you agree with fashion and HR consultants? I'm thinking they are not actual people with whom you've met, but instead simply read some article that talked about dress for success. It sounds like you didn't read the 2 articles (linked by a post) put on the thread? I did and was referring directly to those expert opinions. Why would you take their words and apply them to the very narrow subject of off duty pilots in a Hilton lounge and give them more weight and credibility than an actual off duty pilot in a Hilton lounge? The pilot who posted the article links had broadened the topic and as I'm interested in dress, in general, in public places I commented on the articles and noted how the issue is reflected in our society, as a whole. Additionally, I asked my husband (who has good judgment and agrees with the group concept MM is advocating) what he wears in the c/lounge.

Third, you go on about the massive sacrifices of pilots before. Come freaking on. The rude remarks aren't relevant so I have no comment. We, dear wife, are talking about a Hilton lounge here. Where it was posted that a pilot wears flipflops. My reaction was surprise because flipflops are against the public school dress code where I live. You may have confined your remarks but others didn't and the posted articles discussed the issue of dress and its affect on the career, generally. I tried to tie it all together but those who didn't read the articles would miss that.

Fourth, how would I feel? It's a ridiculous question I beg to differ. Asking you to put yourself in the same situation as the pilot who has experienced a problem on the road is perfectly germane to the subject. Looks like you're dodging the question... so I'll answer it with another ridiculous question: How would you feel if someone shop lifted from your local grocery store and management decided to not let any more people in the store? You might starve! That's a much bigger concern than me relaxing in a lounge.

I would do exactly like the pilot who started this thread. I'd stress my own adherence to the rules and then I'd ask the group I belonged to to comply w/the norms; I'd warn them of the consequences when they don't and explain the affects their behavior was having on the rest of the group. This situation, in general, isn't new. Many times members of a group will appeal to their peers when the actions of some give a bad name to all. Naturally, those more concerned with the group, overall, will be opposed by those who place their priority on individual choice--nothing new there, either. It's very easy for readers to discern which poster belongs to which group based on their posts. I leave it for the readers to decide which viewpoint they share. Both sides of the dress issue have been thoroughly a-dressed....

 

[old*art]

Its usually the same ones' whose behavior has gotten their a** in a sling, then come on the company message board wanting the troops to rally round them cause they have been "ratted out" by someone. Its like some famous person said, "You can't hide class, people either have it or they don't."