So where does the next generation come from???

[Flopgut]

I got news for you dude, EVERYONE gets older (unless they are very unlucky), not just "old guys".

Some do it gracefully and some do not. Age 65 was a cake eater stunt and not graceful or honorable in the least bit.

Im knocked back into the right seat. I can say without hesitation that 90% of the guys who want to work past 60 have multiple bad divorces and have made really stupid investments. And I mean STUPID! The things they threw their money into would have made MC Hammer scratch his head. It is really unfortunate that the monies taken from the junior are being spent in this way.

 

[Flopgut]

Not even close. When you have to support retiree health care for a number equivalent of the entire population of Wyoming, you can't produce a quality product as a competitive price. Something has to give. UAW has found a friend in the White House who is willing to perpetuate the fantasy that it's still 1970 and that the UAW doesn't need to negotiate.

Why does the left love to talk about sustainability until it comes to the economy, then it clings to policies doomed to cause collateral damage when they inevitably fail.

Auto industry failing? Hand the keys to the folks whose contracts caused the problems.
Health Care in crisis? Slap together a product that causes far more problems than it solves.
Employment imploding? Focus all your efforts on destabilizing the economy so that no one will know whether or not to invest and grow because of the penaties for success.

Please would one of you right -seat lefties please give me an example of something that the left has done that qualifies as a success?

Change? How does repeating the failures of 80 years of liberalism equate to change?

I do not want to get into a political discussion.

As far as the UAW and automakers go, look at Fords recent profits. It is an example of good mgt giving good designs to to UAW to build. They didnt roll the UAW back to zero in order to prop up a chronically bad mgt team.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There is no one solution or silver bullet.

Skiles and Sully, in theri congressional testimoney stated they know of no one that wants their kids to be airline pilots....


The default response is to let the market decide. Keep in mind pilots are American consumers just like airline ticket purchasers. The power our our market culture to demand low prices is a force that monumentous.

The only way corporations are going comply is federal legislation. If they are not forced thru law to comply they will seek out the cheapest route. Don't underestimate managements ability to find cheap labor. They will even surprise themselves.

ERAU/UND are selling sugar coated dreams. And guys are buying...


The real question is... who owns the Air Line Pilot Profession? Who are the custodians? Who is going to define, manage and lead the Profession?

After you look around at managment, govt, industry for those who care about the profession and you find no one, it is time to realize that we are The Keepers of the Air Line Pilot Profession.

Only we care about it. The question is... what are you going to do about it. Quit looking for Congress, the Market and your CEO to do the "right thing".

A few goals are:

Redefine our image.

Ensure legislative and WH Admin polices are favorable.

Mentor and lead students at schools like UND/ERAU

​

What else?

 

[Flightdawg]

I got news for you dude, EVERYONE gets older (unless they are very unlucky), not just "old guys".

You mean the young guys aren't bullet proof and will fly forever as soon as they can move to the left seat? This is going to come to a shock for some.

On average, about 15% of older pilots fail their medical and are forced to retire early. This data was pre-age 65. I expect the percentage to shoot up considerably after age 60. A lifetime of bad food, little exercise, disrupted rest cycles, smoking and alcohol is going to take its toll on more than a few of our brethren.

 

[Flightdawg]

Age 65 was a cake eater stunt and not graceful or honorable in the least bit.

Incorrect. It was the FAA bringing the FAR's into line with ICAO standard. American pilot unions had a choice of either sitting along the sidelines complaining about the intention or becoming involved to mitigate the damage. The Executive Council chose wisely in my opinion. It always sucks to have to chose between the lessor of two evils.

 

[Dan Roman]

You mean the young guys aren't bullet proof and will fly forever as soon as they can move to the left seat? This is going to come to a shock for some.

On average, about 15% of older pilots fail their medical and are forced to retire early. This data was pre-age 65. I expect the percentage to shoot up considerably after age 60. A lifetime of bad food, little exercise, disrupted rest cycles, smoking and alcohol is going to take its toll on more than a few of our brethren.

Couldn't agree more. I would add one more lifestyle choice that would also be a major health risk, getting so bitter and obsessed over something that it dominants your thoughts and taints reality.
Flopgut, I hope you aren't as obsessed in life about this as you appear to be on F/I.

 

[Dan Roman]

Incorrect. It was the FAA bringing the FAR's into line with ICAO standard. American pilot unions had a choice of either sitting along the sidelines complaining about the intention or becoming involved to mitigate the damage. The Executive Council chose wisely in my opinion. It always sucks to have to chose between the lessor of two evils.

You are right again.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The outlook for pilot pay will remain dismal as long as airlines refuse to price their product based on costs of production. They dump their seats on priceline, et.al. because they dread an empty seat at pushback. However in doing this, they set the standard for ticket prices unsustainably low.

The ticket agent thing was a bit of a racket, but no more so than the real estate agent system. You need a way to buffer the access to fares among all the airlines at once. A passenger who can instantly compare all fares in the open will set the stage for airlines to price tickets irrationally and use labor's dependance on a paycheck to absorb losses related to such irrational pricing.

Deregulation and internet distribution are the dynamite and gasoline that blew up all stability in the airline industry. Unfortunately for the airline employees, they are the only victims of such instability - the public is blithely unaware.

Labor has 2 choices - Hope for a return to stability or adapt the career to survive in the ups and downs by unhooking themselves to a particular employer.

 

[Flopgut]

Incorrect. It was the FAA bringing the FAR's into line with ICAO standard. American pilot unions had a choice of either sitting along the sidelines complaining about the intention or becoming involved to mitigate the damage. The Executive Council chose wisely in my opinion. It always sucks to have to chose between the lessor of two evils.

Well, it would seem the lesser of two evils always tilts in favor of Prater's generation. That makes him, and the rest of his kind, cake eaters.

BTW: Wasn't it Congress that changed it? In the middle of the night, in a BS session when even as many as one, single no vote would have squelched it?

 

[jpeace02]

Will be furloughed from NJA in January. The feeling of freedom is unbelivable. We've seen it coming so we've had time to plan but getting out of aviation and LEARNING something new is pretty sweet.

Pilots, myself included, have this bad habit of thinking, "I'm tied to this seniority list I can't leave and start over." Nothing against unions, mine's been awesome but I can't wait to get into an industry where I'm needed and wanted.

In 5-7 years maybe I go back maybe I don't. But I'm sure as hell not going back to sh*& wages and working conditions.

 

[Dan Roman]

Will be furloughed from NJA in January. The feeling of freedom is unbelivable. We've seen it coming so we've had time to plan but getting out of aviation and LEARNING something new is pretty sweet.

Pilots, myself included, have this bad habit of thinking, "I'm tied to this seniority list I can't leave and start over." Nothing against unions, mine's been awesome but I can't wait to get into an industry where I'm needed and wanted.

In 5-7 years maybe I go back maybe I don't. But I'm sure as hell not going back to sh*& wages and working conditions.

Hate to sound like an old fart, but I've been and flown with numerous others who have gone through a furlough. Everyone who had an attitude like you expressed came out way ahead and their furlough was actually a major positive in their lives. A lot seem to feel that way. Some do get buried in feeling like a victim, but they represent a smell minority.
Good Luck, though it appears you are making your own luck and will do fine.

 

[Flopgut]

Couldn't agree more. I would add one more lifestyle choice that would also be a major health risk, getting so bitter and obsessed over something that it dominants your thoughts and taints reality.
Flopgut, I hope you aren't as obsessed in life about this as you appear to be on F/I.

Thanks for the concern...I'm doing quite well. This is really just a coping mechanism and something that keeps me vigilent toward the next stunt your generation tries to pull. And BTW, I spend an equal amount of time trying to find a glimmer of hope that your generation might actually try to improve the whole profession. But that seems a far remote possibility than another devious grab.

 

[spitfire1500]

I have 2 friends that are flying in the military (one in Johnstown, Pa. and the other in Afghanistan) that are staying in the military and have seniority numbers at Northwest / Delta. Both say the same thing..."no way" am I going back until the airline industry sorts itself out"..... and not until they get their time in to get a military pension.

Civilian training is way down!! I still have a read though Flight Training and they publish the stats for new licenses and student pilot starts.
If my kid ever starts getting the idea of being a pilot he'll get one right in the nose!! The only career out there where you can be a captain at the top one day after years of effort and be at the bottom of a regional list making nothing the next because of someones elses management errors.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Thanks for the concern...I'm doing quite well. This is really just a coping mechanism and something that keeps me vigilent toward the next stunt your generation tries to pull. And BTW, I spend an equal amount of time trying to find a glimmer of hope that your generation might actually try to improve the whole profession. But that seems a far remote possibility than another devious grab.

What are you doing to improve YOUR generation (assuming, of course, that it's not the same generation, a risk of internet blathering)?

 

[Flightdawg]

Well, it would seem the lesser of two evils always tilts in favor of Prater's generation. That makes him, and the rest of his kind, cake eaters.

You missed the point. Age 65 was coming whether we wanted it or not. The FAA was very clear on that point. The choice Prater had to make was 1) be part of the FAA's committee reviewing how the change would be implemented or 2) sit outside the building throwing rocks and bitching how life sucks.

Age 65 was only one of several changes the FAA has been making to bring our regs closer into line with ICAO. There are many more, mostly minor stuff. Expect to see verbiage changes like "Line up and wait" and other procedural differences paired up. Obviously, since it affected so many pilot's wallets, Age 65 gets all the attention.

 

[snozberry]

What would requiring 1500TT really do? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe both pilots in the Colgan crash had over 1500 hours. How many hours did the NW crew have that overshot the airport? How many hours did the DL crew have that landed on the taxi way? Nobody died in those two examples, but if the NW plane ran out of fuel? Or if there was another plane or vehicle on the taxi way when DL landed? How about the WN in BUR? Or the AA in LIT? How many hours did these crews have? This is just another example of the Govt. instilling a false sense of security to the public. Why don't we make it so the problem pilots can be fired. We've all flown with people who are "accidents waiting to happen". What happens to them when they fail multiple checkrides? Or violate a clearance or FAR? Nothing! They can't be fired because the union will save their job. And if the union can't, their lawyers will. Congress should make it so companies and the FAA can get unsafe pilots grounded permanately. Killing hopes and dreams of somebody with less then 1500 is not the solution.

 

[007]

You missed the point. Age 65 was coming whether we wanted it or not. The FAA was very clear on that point. The choice Prater had to make was 1) be part of the FAA's committee reviewing how the change would be implemented or 2) sit outside the building throwing rocks and bitching how life sucks.

1. And exactly how much input did they provide?? Only the kind that helped the old farts...i.e. no tougher medicals etc.

2. Us younger guys were doing this, throwing rocks.

 

[ualdriver]

1. And exactly how much input did they provide?? Only the kind that helped the old farts...i.e. no tougher medicals etc.

Did not allowing guys to come back who were over the age of 60 and who were already retired "help the old farts?"

 

[414Flyer]

What would requiring 1500TT really do? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe both pilots in the Colgan crash had over 1500 hours. How many hours did the NW crew have that overshot the airport? How many hours did the DL crew have that landed on the taxi way? Nobody died in those two examples, but if the NW plane ran out of fuel? Or if there was another plane or vehicle on the taxi way when DL landed? How about the WN in BUR? Or the AA in LIT? How many hours did these crews have? This is just another example of the Govt. instilling a false sense of security to the public. Why don't we make it so the problem pilots can be fired. We've all flown with people who are "accidents waiting to happen". What happens to them when they fail multiple checkrides? Or violate a clearance or FAR? Nothing! They can't be fired because the union will save their job. And if the union can't, their lawyers will. Congress should make it so companies and the FAA can get unsafe pilots grounded permanately. Killing hopes and dreams of somebody with less then 1500 is not the solution.

Well its not just hours, but what those hours are. Someone with 1500 TT, thats been flying such as 135 freight dog, gets a whole lot more out of a given hour than someone who was an hour as an 121 FO. Not sure if you did any time freight doggin' it, but as a single pilot part 135 PIC, you get quite a bit of experience the hard way.

Someone hired with 500 TT, has very little time so far that is not out of a training environment, and has really not exercised that much judgement so far, in comparison. And if they have 500 TT, and fly as 1000 hours as an FO, well they may know 121 ops better, but for airmanship, I would still take the freight dog anytime.

Being a 135 freight dog used to be a natural progression before going to the commuters/regionals. Now we ended up with FOs who never did freight and probably look down on that lowly Seneca or 402 driver. But in reality that freight dog could easily fly circles around that shiny jet FO, and know a lot more about weather and airmanship.

 

[Bringupthebird]

There is less an less freight flying available due mostly to the electronic processing of checks and the consolidation in freight ops.

 

[414Flyer]

True, I had forgotten about that, but there are still other jobs out there to build experience, hours, judgment and airmanship. I would just rather an airline pilot not be an entry level job.

 

[scoreboardII]

so where does the next generation come from???

India

 

[MD11Drvr]

Gust,

What a great character...

"He's a cake-eater, he's a clown, he's a bad station chief, and I don't like to cast aspersions on a guy, but he's going to get us all killed." GA

 

[Flightdawg]

1. And exactly how much input did they provide?? Only the kind that helped the old farts...i.e. no tougher medicals etc.

2. Us younger guys were doing this, throwing rocks.

The tougher medicals work both ways. If it was up to me, there'd be no age limit. It'd be based on strict medical and physical fitness tests along with a cog test. This would take out many senior pilots but also many younger guys such as those who didn't qualify for the military or eat too much airport food with too little exercise.

If you want to complain about Prater, I'm sure you don't need an excuse, so just do it. If you want to complain about the Age 65 issue and the FAA, then I respectfully suggest you look at the facts.

 

[Flightdawg]

Did not allowing guys to come back who were over the age of 60 and who were already retired "help the old farts?"

Come back as newhires?

 

[waveflyer]

Stricter medicals would be great in a perfect world. But when the FAA administers that- I want no part of it- and I run triathalons.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Stricter medicals would be great in a perfect world. But when the FAA administers that- I want no part of it- and I run triathalons.

So you don't trust the Federal Govt? Interesting coming from a liberal.....

 

[waveflyer]

So you don't trust the Federal Govt? Interesting coming from a liberal.....

Shut up.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Shut up.

Intelligent response...You sound like Pelosi now...Why don't you trust the FAA? Aren't they here to help us?

 

[Flopgut]

If you want to complain about Prater, I'm sure you don't need an excuse, so just do it. If you want to complain about the Age 65 issue and the FAA, then I respectfully suggest you look at the facts.

I will agree with you on this, at least in part. Prater made it happen when and how it did. Perhaps the FAA would have eventually changed it. But it would not have been at this time and I don´t believe it would have been written to be a windfall. Look at how the FAA is working out the duty and rest rule changes. If Congress doesn´t step in it will still take years and they are further along with that than they were age 65.

FWIW, I support no age limit as well. But if we are to do that I believe we should abandon the seniority principle as well. Start command evaluation at 5 to 10 years and go with rostering and assignments.

You spoke of the lesser of two evils. Let me point out that when faced with going on strike to fight Lorenzo early in Prater´s career, strikers like John only agreed to do so if ALPA paid strike pay. What I´m saying is: John does not display the same regard for junior pilots now that he insisted on for himself as a junior pilot. Slanting the lesser of two evils in his own favor is very much a pattern of behavior with him. Example: He wanted ALL of ALPA assessed so he could be taken care of early in his career. He´s put an embargo on advancement for todays junior ALPA member. So far, John has ducked this critique but I think we´ll bring him around. Or he won´t be running ALPA much longer.