So what's the deal with DL and Mesa 900s?

[IronCityBlue]

If that is the position of my union.....then bring the gas and the lighter.....I will not support a union that takes the position that my job is a mainline bargaining chip....

I'm not going to argue with you....I'm just going to tell you that position won't fly with those of us who have now made a career of the "outsourced" flying....

Decide if you want to have a union or not.....doesn't sound like you want that....

So in your analogy, what exactly is the "gas and lighter"? Another lawsuit that you will never win?

If Delta management said they just decided all flying should be brought in house and flown by Delta pilots because management wanted it that way, would you sue them? Could you sue them? Nope.

If Pinnacle ALPA underbids you and takes all your outsourced flying during the next RFP, will you sue them? Nope.

If Teamsters Chautauqua underbids you during the next RFP and takes all your company's outsourced lift, will you sue? Nope.

If non union SkyWest underbids you, will you sue? Nope.

So anyone is free and clear to take, underbid, bargain for, etc. the flying you currently do, except mainline pilots, according to your argument? Interesting logic, but it doesn't pass, well, the logic test.

Getting back to your threats, what will you do? Sue again? You won't win, ever. I've also heard several RJDC supporters/sympathizers threaten to underbid mainline pilots for planes they (the RJDC supporters) don't currently fly (i.e. 777's, etc) arrogantly thinking management will pick them to do the work. That's also not going to work. There is no shortage of companies (many are ALPA, many are not) that fly mainline planes for much, MUCH less than legacy mainline pilots, yet legacy managements are unable to subcontract them for the work. So that threat is empty and toothless.

You are obviously in a position in your career where your seniority at your company, within its status quo, gives you a status quo that you enjoy and don't want to give up. That's understandable. But any flying that your company does that's outsourced from another company is subject to the terms, conditions and constant risk inherent to that outsourced flying. No lawsuits and no threats are going to change that very basic fact. If you want your company to control its destiny, go Independence Air, and succeed long term at it. Then you will have your status quo plus control of your situation. Until then, you live RFP by RFP, and there may not always be an RFP.

You are free to bid for any flying that another company allows to be outsourced. But that company is free not to outsource it anymore. Not a whole lot you can do about that.

As for working together which you mentioned earlier, that would obviously be the preferred way. But you will have to accept that you have significantly less power than you may wish you have. IOW if you want permanent rights to legacy flying, you will need the help of mainline pilots to bargain for you, and pay for it themselves. That's probably not going to happen for free for you, and its definitely not going to happen without some sacrifice and risk on your part.

I've seen RJDC guys act extremely arrogant about the perceived leverage they thought (think) they have, when in fact they never had any at all. If you truly want to work together, you will have to make sacrifices and pony up a share of the cost and, yes, even the risk.

But don't say mainline pilots can't take their flying back anytime they want to, when other outsource providers can take it, or management can give it to others. That makes no sense. Mainline pilots can take back their company's flying anytime they are willing to negotiate for it, and you can't sue or threaten them not to. You can, however, sit back and hope they remain shortsighted as they have been for the last 15+ years, and you may be right. But that's not really long term security now, is it?

 

[JoeMerchant]

So in your analogy, what exactly is the "gas and lighter"? Another lawsuit that you will never win?

If Delta management said they just decided all flying should be brought in house and flown by Delta pilots because management wanted it that way, would you sue them? Could you sue them? Nope.

If Pinnacle ALPA underbids you and takes all your outsourced flying during the next RFP, will you sue them? Nope.

If Teamsters Chautauqua underbids you during the next RFP and takes all your company's outsourced lift, will you sue? Nope.

If non union SkyWest underbids you, will you sue? Nope.

So anyone is free and clear to take, underbid, bargain for, etc. the flying you currently do, except mainline pilots, according to your argument? Interesting logic, but it doesn't pass, well, the logic test.

Getting back to your threats, what will you do? Sue again? You won't win, ever. I've also heard several RJDC supporters/sympathizers threaten to underbid mainline pilots for planes they (the RJDC supporters) don't currently fly (i.e. 777's, etc) arrogantly thinking management will pick them to do the work. That's also not going to work. There is no shortage of companies (many are ALPA, many are not) that fly mainline planes for much, MUCH less than legacy mainline pilots, yet legacy managements are unable to subcontract them for the work. So that threat is empty and toothless.

You are obviously in a position in your career where your seniority at your company, within its status quo, gives you a status quo that you enjoy and don't want to give up. That's understandable. But any flying that your company does that's outsourced from another company is subject to the terms, conditions and constant risk inherent to that outsourced flying. No lawsuits and no threats are going to change that very basic fact. If you want your company to control its destiny, go Independence Air, and succeed long term at it. Then you will have your status quo plus control of your situation. Until then, you live RFP by RFP, and there may not always be an RFP.

You are free to bid for any flying that another company allows to be outsourced. But that company is free not to outsource it anymore. Not a whole lot you can do about that.

As for working together which you mentioned earlier, that would obviously be the preferred way. But you will have to accept that you have significantly less power than you may wish you have. IOW if you want permanent rights to legacy flying, you will need the help of mainline pilots to bargain for you, and pay for it themselves. That's probably not going to happen for free for you, and its definitely not going to happen without some sacrifice and risk on your part.

I've seen RJDC guys act extremely arrogant about the perceived leverage they thought (think) they have, when in fact they never had any at all. If you truly want to work together, you will have to make sacrifices and pony up a share of the cost and, yes, even the risk.

But don't say mainline pilots can't take their flying back anytime they want to, when other outsource providers can take it, or management can give it to others. That makes no sense. Mainline pilots can take back their company's flying anytime they are willing to negotiate for it, and you can't sue or threaten them not to. You can, however, sit back and hope they remain shortsighted as they have been for the last 15+ years, and you may be right. But that's not really long term security now, is it?

Simple....I and others won't support this union or any efforts by this union then.....If it really gets to the point you are talking about then my jumpseat will become off limits also.....

Lawsuits, decertification, jumpseat war....you name it.....My job does not belong to you....

You are proving that ALPA isn't a union and there is no brotherhood in this joke we call ALPA......

 

[Speedtape]

But don't say mainline pilots can't take their flying back anytime they want to, when other outsource providers can take it, or management can give it to others. That makes no sense. Mainline pilots can take back their company's flying anytime they are willing to negotiate for it, and you can't sue or threaten them not to. You can, however, sit back and hope they remain shortsighted as they have been for the last 15+ years, and you may be right. But that's not really long term security now, is it?

I'll say it! Mainline pilots can't and want take "their" flying back anytime they want!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They gave it up, forever, in 1996 when they opened Pandora's box for the entire industry!

Long term security??? Please define that for us. No one in this industry has security, much less long term! If you think you have long term security at a legend, ask an Eastern, Pan AM, Braniff, or TWA pilot what they think? You may even be able to ask a United pilot today.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'll say it! Mainline pilots can't and want take "their" flying back anytime they want!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They gave it up, forever, in 1996 when they opened Pandora's box for the entire industry!

Long term security??? Please define that for us. No one in this industry has security, much less long term! If you think you have long term security at a legend, ask an Eastern, Pan AM, Braniff, or TWA pilot what they think? You may even be able to ask a United pilot today.

Good point Speedtape....ask the 20 year USAir pilot who is being stapled to the bottom of the AWA/USair list about job security......

 

[dooork]

You think anything else matters?!?

The post I was speaking to was Mcnuggets "until Delta realizes how much you suck"...and the point was ASA has sucked (performance wise)for quite some time.....for whatever your reason.....and Delta kept them around.

ASA has a better contract now....after 5 years of stuggle....is it 5 years of struggle better?

 

[McNugent]

Did I offend you too dooork? I seem to be doing that a lot lately.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

IMHO, anyone that flies for Mesa is a Doooooooooork aka a Toooooooooooool aka a F'ing idiot.

The sooner Mesa/Freedom vanishes, the better the pilot group will be.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I've seen RJDC guys act extremely arrogant about the perceived leverage they thought (think) they have, when in fact they never had any at all. If you truly want to work together, you will have to make sacrifices and pony up a share of the cost and, yes, even the risk.

But don't say mainline pilots can't take their flying back anytime they want to, when other outsource providers can take it, or management can give it to others. That makes no sense. Mainline pilots can take back their company's flying anytime they are willing to negotiate for it, and you can't sue or threaten them not to. You can, however, sit back and hope they remain shortsighted as they have been for the last 15+ years, and you may be right. But that's not really long term security now, is it?

Maybe the RJDC guys acted arrogant in the past. They never should have had that entitlement attitude, and I never supported their cause.

I have not personally ever thought Delta pilots deserved their reputation for being pricks. .... I was wrong.

This is one of the most arrogant posts I have ever seen on FI

To come on here and threaten me by saying that my job exists only at the pleasure of the almighty Delta pilot, correct or incorrect is VERY arrogant. When issuing a statement like that, you will make many enemies. The fact that you don't care or dont think it matters makes you even more arrogant.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Simple....I and others won't support this union or any efforts by this union then.....If it really gets to the point you are talking about then my jumpseat will become off limits also.....

Lawsuits,
[I]What doesn't get immediately thrown out of court, you will lose in the end anyway. It makes no sense that any airline in the country can bid for current and future flying, and be awarded it, EXCEPT delta pilots. Good luck with that lawsuit, but you won't win one cent.[/I]

decertification,Go ahead and decertify. If the alternative is permanently surrendering all 76 seat flying to you as if you own it, when you clearly don't, then it would be better if you decertified. That way you would forever invalidate any DFR claims that you think you are entitled to. But before any of that, sue Pinnacle, SkyWest and Chautauqua for underbidding you first. Oh that's right, anyone can bid for 76 seat Delta flying...EXCEPT Delta pilots, according to your logic. :laugh:
jumpseat war That would hurt pilots in your group as badly as other pilots, and in the end is nowhere near...I mean not even close...to the missing leverage you seek to permanently own flying that doesn't belong to you. If you force another pilot group to chose between offline jumpseats and tons of 70 and 90 seaters, I don't think your secret weapon is going to do much damage at all.
....you name it No, you name it. You've already names several, yet all are ineffective. What else is up your sleeve?
.....My job does not belong to you....True, but apparently you don't even understand what your job is. You do not own 76 seat flying FOR DELTA (or United or anyone else). Mainline pilots can't take your ASA flying, but there is no such thing as ASA flying unless you go Independence Air, which is your right. Until then, you live by the good graces of mainline pilot scope exemptions AND mainline management's daily decisions. You've already lost flying to other regionals, and that I guess is OK to you, but God forbid if mainline pilots negotiate for that flying, THEN that's war? GMAB.

You are proving that ALPA isn't a union and there is no brotherhood in this joke we call ALPA......

Are mainline UNited pilots harmed by ALPA that they can't do mainline CAL flying? You have benefitted greatly over the years from mainline pilot shortsightedness and management greed, and the RJ years. While I understand your desire to continue that trend, the fact is you really have no say in it, and never did in the first place. If you want what you seek, go Independence Air, and succeed at it long term. Otherwise abide by the terms of being an outsource provider who does not control the flying you do.

 

[dooork]

Did I offend you too dooork? I seem to be doing that a lot lately.

No I am not offended. I was just saying you can suck (like ASA) and still fly for Delta.

 

[Speedtape]

Are mainline UNited pilots harmed by ALPA that they can't do mainline CAL flying? You have benefitted greatly over the years from mainline pilot shortsightedness and management greed, and the RJ years. While I understand your desire to continue that trend, the fact is you really have no say in it, and never did in the first place. If you want what you seek, go Independence Air, and succeed at it long term. Otherwise abide by the terms of being an outsource provider who does not control the flying you do.

And what say, have you, Ole Wise FLAMER One? I'd rather just keep taking YOUR flying so you can rot in the right seat!

 

[McNugent]

No I am not offended. I was just saying you can suck (like ASA) and still fly for Delta.

You are a funny funny man. Ok, place ASA and Mesa next to each other and compare. The reasons ASA has "sucked" in the past were due to unresolved contract issues and clueless management who didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. None of this was brought on by the ASA pilot group.

While I can't blame you for Mesa's criminal leadership team, I do blame you for working there and supporting their cause of predatory undercutting of other airlines and treating pilots like sheeet. People go to Mesa because they see or saw a quick upgrade and could care less about pay, QOL, or anything else. It is a purely a selfish, "I'm gonna get mine and screw everyone else" mentality that unfortunately runs rampant among pilots. You just happened to pick the worst airline in the U.S. for it.

While ASA has definitely had it's times of sucking (operationaly and orginazationaly) the ASA pilots weren't the central cause of it (except for a couple months last fall). When you put together hostile worthless managment and pissed off pilots, it's never going to be pretty.

I definitely wouldn't come close to clumping us into the same category as you scum sucking Mesa dirtbags.

 

[FORESTGUMP]

Are mainline UNited pilots harmed by ALPA that they can't do mainline CAL flying? You have benefitted greatly over the years from mainline pilot shortsightedness and management greed, and the RJ years. While I understand your desire to continue that trend, the fact is you really have no say in it, and never did in the first place. If you want what you seek, go Independence Air, and succeed at it long term. Otherwise abide by the terms of being an outsource provider who does not control the flying you do.

The really funny part of all of this is the that YOU and your Deltoid friends actually think you have any say in the matter or ever did in the first place either. Actually, its more sad than funny.

Newsflash: the only thing management cares about is the short term ability for them to increase their bank account balances. They could not care less about what you, your buddies or any of us thinks, wants or needs.

So, all this stuff having been said, enjoy your widebody flying with some high volume 737/757 domestic flying and Connection with fill those up for you guys with 100 seat and less RJ's. Oh, no, no...you don't have to believe me. Just remember you heard it here first.

 

[IronCityBlue]

And what say, have you, Ole Wise FLAMER One? I'd rather just keep taking YOUR flying so you can rot in the right seat!

What say have I? I'm sorry I don't speak Dr Seuss or whatever you were going for.

But thanks for admitting you want to take other's flying. Not that such a confession was necessary, but your honesty is appreciated nonetheless.

Look, maybe you and others are right and mainline pilot groups will give up more and more, and you will thrive with instant upgrades into bigger planes with 2 dollar per hour overrides. But you have to acknowledge that the trend of outsourced lift may be coming to a stop, and even may be reversed to some degree. It first needs to start with anything certified over 70 seats, then any jet over 50 seats. That should be a good start for the next 5 or 10 years, and then large props and 50 seat jets can be addressed.

 

[dooork]

You are a funny funny man. Ok, place ASA and Mesa next to each other and compare. The reasons ASA has "sucked" in the past were due to unresolved contract issues and clueless management who didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. None of this was brought on by the ASA pilot group.

While I can't blame you for Mesa's criminal leadership team, I do blame you for working there and supporting their cause of predatory undercutting of other airlines and treating pilots like sheeet. People go to Mesa because they see or saw a quick upgrade and could care less about pay, QOL, or anything else. It is a purely a selfish, "I'm gonna get mine and screw everyone else" mentality that unfortunately runs rampant among pilots. You just happened to pick the worst airline in the U.S. for it.

While ASA has definitely had it's times of sucking (operationaly and orginazationaly) the ASA pilots weren't the central cause of it (except for a couple months last fall). When you put together hostile worthless management and pissed off pilots, it's never going to be pretty.

I definitely wouldn't come close to clumping us into the same category as you scum sucking Mesa dirtbags.

So now you are saying that pilots (everywhere) should quit their jobs based on the morality of the management that is currently operating them? WOW that would place allot of pilots out of a job.

Most of the "mainline" pilots that came from the civilian world did exactly what you have described.You got hired at a commuter, did your time for sh@t wages, upgraded and moved on. Its been that way for ever......where have you been?

 

[dooork]

IMHO, anyone that flies for Mesa is a Doooooooooork aka a Toooooooooooool aka a F'ing idiot.

The sooner Mesa/Freedom vanishes, the better the pilot group will be.

Wow...coming from someone who is salivating over maybe getting 190's....you are a real piece of....

 

[Speedtape]

What say have I? I'm sorry I don't speak Dr Seuss or whatever you were going for.

But thanks for admitting you want to take other's flying. Not that such a confession was necessary, but your honesty is appreciated nonetheless.

Look, maybe you and others are right and mainline pilot groups will give up more and more, and you will thrive with instant upgrades into bigger planes with 2 dollar per hour overrides. But you have to acknowledge that the trend of outsourced lift may be coming to a stop, and even may be reversed to some degree. It first needs to start with anything certified over 70 seats, then any jet over 50 seats. That should be a good start for the next 5 or 10 years, and then large props and 50 seat jets can be addressed.

First sentence: It's English; what language do you speak? Don't forget to request your license with the endorsement, if you understand and speak English.

Last paragraph: Outsourcing is not coming to a stop, and it is certainly NOT reversing as a trend! I will only acknowledge those facts. If you have something other than a wish list pertaining to this issue, PRESENT YOUR FACTS!

The rest of your statement (using the word "may") is nothing more than your fleeting thoughts on the way the world "ought to be!" If you have facts that support your argument, please present them!

No pilot or pilot group "owns" anything! You do have scope that somewhat protects what you have not already given up, but not what you bargained away! If you can speculate, so will I! My speculation is that soon, scope will be modified again, allowing more outsourcing on planes in the 100 seat range. Scope relief will be given to protect and promote pay and benefits on the larger airplanes. How will that affect you? To use your word "may", there "may" be a 15 year upgrade--or longer! There are UAL pilots that have been sitting in the right seat for at least 12 years now.

If you look at the D-pilot hiring situation, there was some move-up and over in the last year and new hiring due to one reason--about 500 pilots took early retirement and their lump sum and ran! How many pilots have been hired in the last 12 months as hiring started in April, '07? Interviewing just stopped this week--interviews have been cancelled! The last class was rumored to be early May--that may have been moved up also!

Are you protected by the furlough provision?

 

[IronCityBlue]

First sentence: It's English; what language do you speak? Don't forget to request your license with the endorsement, if you understand and speak English.

Last paragraph: Outsourcing is not coming to a stop, and it is certainly NOT reversing as a trend! I will only acknowledge those facts. If you have something other than a wish list pertaining to this issue, PRESENT YOUR FACTS!

The rest of your statement (using the word "may") is nothing more than your fleeting thoughts on the way the world "ought to be!" If you have facts that support your argument, please present them!

No pilot or pilot group "owns" anything! You do have scope that somewhat protects what you have not already given up, but not what you bargained away! If you can speculate, so will I! My speculation is that soon, scope will be modified again, allowing more outsourcing on planes in the 100 seat range. Scope relief will be given to protect and promote pay and benefits on the larger airplanes. How will that affect you? To use your word "may", there "may" be a 15 year upgrade--or longer! There are UAL pilots that have been sitting in the right seat for at least 12 years now.

If you look at the D-pilot hiring situation, there was some move-up and over in the last year and new hiring due to one reason--about 500 pilots took early retirement and their lump sum and ran! How many pilots have been hired in the last 12 months as hiring started in April, '07? Interviewing just stopped this week--interviews have been cancelled! The last class was rumored to be early May--that may have been moved up also!

Are you protected by the furlough provision?

You clearly wish for more outsourced flying in larger and larger planes. You base that on a previous trend despite recent evidence (CAL holding strong despite intense pressure and AA addressing the issue formally for the first time and AirTran beating back an attempted advance by management) because you clearly want this to occur.

I clearly want this not to occur, but you are right about one thing: what say have we (just got my english endorsement so I can Dr Seuss with the best of them now) but one thing you still don't get is who owns the flying. You clearly think, right out of the RJDC playbook, that once flying is allowed to be outsourced, that flying must never return. Yet you will be forced to acknowledge (I hope) that ANYONE is free to bargain for permitted outsourcing in another pilot group's PWA. That means ASA can bid for current or future flying. SkyWest can also bid for it. Mesa can bid for it. Comair, Pinnacle, etc. etc. etc. You know this (or at least I hope you know this) yet, for some reason, you think it is impossible for Delta pilots to bid for that very same flying. Delta pilots can very clearly bid for it. The only issue so far has been cost. What's better for a pilot group, 2000+ furloughs or agreeing to market based (or even below) operating costs to recapture flying? It won't come cheaply, but it IS available for repurchase at ANY time by any mainline pilot group who outsources any flying.

Again, yet again, I acknowledge that mainline shortsightedness may prevent that from happening, as well as may even make the outsourcing situation worse (or in your case better) however I don't think that will be the case. You clearly enjoy, for whatever reason, the ACMI outsource epidemic that's been going on and wish for it to not only continue, but to accelerate, and your wish causes you to predict it will. I am of the opposite opinion. One of us will be right, and I admit it may be you. However, you continually refuse to admit that mainline pilots have the ability to end all outsourcing. It is only a matter of cost.

It was all fun and games when "commuters" were flying harmless little puddle jumper props hauling 19 to 30 pax at a time. Then came the 50 seat jets, getting stretched to 70, then a new 70 came along, and they got stretched to 100-110 seats (CRJ1000 and E195) so you think your "hitting streak" will continue indefinitely for all 162 games. I predict at some point you will go 0 for 5 one game and it will be over. We will see who is right in the end. But in any case, it is not up to you. All the outsourcing you do, or ever will do, comes your way because of the decisions of other pilots. Pilots who, for a price, can take it back. All you can do is be as competitive as possible during the next RFP and hope you win the next round.

And again, just to preempt any accusation that I'm implying that you are "stealing" flying, I am not. You are entitled to perform any permitted outsource flying. You should just realize that one day it may be taken back, and that's not up to you. Go Independence Air if you want to change that.