So what's the deal with DL and Mesa 900s?

[IronCityBlue]

You think anything else matters?!?

Profits mean nothing for an operator with guaranteed profits by the "parent" company. Not only that, but the more profitable an ACMI outsource lift provider is, the more that means the mainline partner is overpaying for that service, from their point of view.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

As for ASA running a VERY PROFESSIONAL OPERATION..... hmmmmm I don't think I would have gone that route yet. After reading a bunch of post by ASA people, I think they are working towards that with there new contract.

Don't let the vocal minority on this site sway you. ASA is a great place to work now. And it's spelled "their"

 

[Abernathy]

ASA was in bitter contract negotiations for 5 years that spilled over into performance numbers. Since signing our numbers have come up. Also our only base is ATL which can be a performance killer.

Not only that, the thing we were worst at, Baggage Handling, is completely out of our control. Delta does our baggage handling.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Not only that, the thing we were worst at, Baggage Handling, is completely out of our control. Delta does our baggage handling.

Only in the cities where Delta does our baggage handling, and the numbers now reflect that factoid. So ATL baggage blunders are now placed on Delta. However, in ASA field stations where a 50 seater can't fit all the bags, or an ATR in Hilton Head, those numbers are all on ASA.

 

[outtahere]

ASA has never really been that bad, our problem is that we hired a bunch of guys from 1999 to 2002 that had never had another flying job, ever. If you have no perspective, then it all seems bad at times. Me on the other hand, I got plenty of perspective thanks to the fat AZZ colgan family. That was pure hell from the word go! ASA has been a cake walk for the past four years!

 

[SoberIrishman]

So what if they were reading it from the manual. I think the FAA would be glad that they did it word for word. Maybe it was a bunch of new-hire FA's, jeez I know Mesa has a big turnover there.

Even reading it from the manual, they still don't get it right! On several flights I have seen this happen, and it just makes you cringe.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Profits mean nothing for an operator with guaranteed profits by the "parent" company. Not only that, but the more profitable an ACMI outsource lift provider is, the more that means the mainline partner is overpaying for that service, from their point of view.

The mainlines....with the assistance of ALPA....made this bed....The mainlines can't survive without domestic feed and they will pay for it....

Skywest and ASA have made profits since day one.....We need to be careful so as to not lose the business...but there aren't many airlines that can say they have made profits for the past 30 years....

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Skywest and ASA have made profits since day one.....We need to be careful so as to not lose the business...but there aren't many airlines that can say they have made profits for the past 30 years....

I think we posted a loss in the first quarter of the company's existence... lol

 

[IronCityBlue]

The mainlines....with the assistance of ALPA....made this bed....The mainlines can't survive without domestic feed and they will pay for it....

Skywest and ASA have made profits since day one.....We need to be careful so as to not lose the business...but there aren't many airlines that can say they have made profits for the past 30 years....

Mainline pilots and ALPA dropped the ball by initially and currently letting any flying be outsourced, especially any jet over 50 seats. That much is true.

As for "making the bed", its not permanent. Mainlines can reclaim their flying anytime they want to bargain for it. ACMI outsource lift providers can comply with mainline terms or go Independence Air. No other choice. The RJDC supporters claimed that once flying is outsourced, even for a day, that flying forever is the domain of the group (within the same union) that received the outsource contract. That insane presumption is 100% false, and the lawsuit yielded nothing but a "heads up" and partial attorney expenses. End of story.

Of course SkyWest and ASA have made profits. They were in the business of guaranteed profits. Even when each could theoretically lose money they didn't because they had someone else selling and filling their seats for them, with worldwide brand recognition and global connections. If SkyWest and/or ASA are such profit machines, dump the Delta and United albatrosses, buy 777's and do the flying yourself. Or run an airline with hundreds of RJ's and a few narrow bodies, whatever your choice. But as long as you do one seat of Delta or United code, you are bound to serve Delta and United on their terms. You will never own one seat of DL or UA flying, ever. Not even close. You only own EV and OO code, which doesn't yet exist among the traveling public. Go Independence if you want to change that.

Of course mainlines need domestic feed. And some of that feed needs to come from 90, 70 and 50 seat RJ's as well as props. No one disputes that. But here's the gold standard with this whole argument that you don't seem to get as of yet: mainlines can do their own feed anytime they want to, and their pilots can pilot that feed anytime they negotiate the restoration of their scope. Scope that you have no claim whatsoever to and never will. Delta and United can hire your company, another company, start a company that doesn't exist yet, or bring it in house completely, and in either case there is nothing you can do about it because you have no claim to another airline's flying.

As for your 30 years of profits, again, go Independence if the company is so awesome and invincible. Either that or take what DL and UA and whoever else's contract you win for the duration that you win it, but it will never be yours to own or control.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Mainline pilots and ALPA dropped the ball by initially and currently letting any flying be outsourced, especially any jet over 50 seats. That much is true.

As for "making the bed", its not permanent. Mainlines can reclaim their flying anytime they want to bargain for it. ACMI outsource lift providers can comply with mainline terms or go Independence Air. No other choice. The RJDC supporters claimed that once flying is outsourced, even for a day, that flying forever is the domain of the group (within the same union) that received the outsource contract. That insane presumption is 100% false, and the lawsuit yielded nothing but a "heads up" and partial attorney expenses. End of story.

Of course SkyWest and ASA have made profits. They were in the business of guaranteed profits. Even when each could theoretically lose money they didn't because they had someone else selling and filling their seats for them, with worldwide brand recognition and global connections. If SkyWest and/or ASA are such profit machines, dump the Delta and United albatrosses, buy 777's and do the flying yourself. Or run an airline with hundreds of RJ's and a few narrow bodies, whatever your choice. But as long as you do one seat of Delta or United code, you are bound to serve Delta and United on their terms. You will never own one seat of DL or UA flying, ever. Not even close. You only own EV and OO code, which doesn't yet exist among the traveling public. Go Independence if you want to change that.

Of course mainlines need domestic feed. And some of that feed needs to come from 90, 70 and 50 seat RJ's as well as props. No one disputes that. But here's the gold standard with this whole argument that you don't seem to get as of yet: mainlines can do their own feed anytime they want to, and their pilots can pilot that feed anytime they negotiate the restoration of their scope. Scope that you have no claim whatsoever to and never will. Delta and United can hire your company, another company, start a company that doesn't exist yet, or bring it in house completely, and in either case there is nothing you can do about it because you have no claim to another airline's flying.

As for your 30 years of profits, again, go Independence if the company is so awesome and invincible. Either that or take what DL and UA and whoever else's contract you win for the duration that you win it, but it will never be yours to own or control.

If that is the position of my union.....then bring the gas and the lighter.....I will not support a union that takes the position that my job is a mainline bargaining chip....

I'm not going to argue with you....I'm just going to tell you that position won't fly with those of us who have now made a career of the "outsourced" flying....

Decide if you want to have a union or not.....doesn't sound like you want that....

 

[IronCityBlue]

If that is the position of my union.....then bring the gas and the lighter.....I will not support a union that takes the position that my job is a mainline bargaining chip....

I'm not going to argue with you....I'm just going to tell you that position won't fly with those of us who have now made a career of the "outsourced" flying....

Decide if you want to have a union or not.....doesn't sound like you want that....

So in your analogy, what exactly is the "gas and lighter"? Another lawsuit that you will never win?

If Delta management said they just decided all flying should be brought in house and flown by Delta pilots because management wanted it that way, would you sue them? Could you sue them? Nope.

If Pinnacle ALPA underbids you and takes all your outsourced flying during the next RFP, will you sue them? Nope.

If Teamsters Chautauqua underbids you during the next RFP and takes all your company's outsourced lift, will you sue? Nope.

If non union SkyWest underbids you, will you sue? Nope.

So anyone is free and clear to take, underbid, bargain for, etc. the flying you currently do, except mainline pilots, according to your argument? Interesting logic, but it doesn't pass, well, the logic test.

Getting back to your threats, what will you do? Sue again? You won't win, ever. I've also heard several RJDC supporters/sympathizers threaten to underbid mainline pilots for planes they (the RJDC supporters) don't currently fly (i.e. 777's, etc) arrogantly thinking management will pick them to do the work. That's also not going to work. There is no shortage of companies (many are ALPA, many are not) that fly mainline planes for much, MUCH less than legacy mainline pilots, yet legacy managements are unable to subcontract them for the work. So that threat is empty and toothless.

You are obviously in a position in your career where your seniority at your company, within its status quo, gives you a status quo that you enjoy and don't want to give up. That's understandable. But any flying that your company does that's outsourced from another company is subject to the terms, conditions and constant risk inherent to that outsourced flying. No lawsuits and no threats are going to change that very basic fact. If you want your company to control its destiny, go Independence Air, and succeed long term at it. Then you will have your status quo plus control of your situation. Until then, you live RFP by RFP, and there may not always be an RFP.

You are free to bid for any flying that another company allows to be outsourced. But that company is free not to outsource it anymore. Not a whole lot you can do about that.

As for working together which you mentioned earlier, that would obviously be the preferred way. But you will have to accept that you have significantly less power than you may wish you have. IOW if you want permanent rights to legacy flying, you will need the help of mainline pilots to bargain for you, and pay for it themselves. That's probably not going to happen for free for you, and its definitely not going to happen without some sacrifice and risk on your part.

I've seen RJDC guys act extremely arrogant about the perceived leverage they thought (think) they have, when in fact they never had any at all. If you truly want to work together, you will have to make sacrifices and pony up a share of the cost and, yes, even the risk.

But don't say mainline pilots can't take their flying back anytime they want to, when other outsource providers can take it, or management can give it to others. That makes no sense. Mainline pilots can take back their company's flying anytime they are willing to negotiate for it, and you can't sue or threaten them not to. You can, however, sit back and hope they remain shortsighted as they have been for the last 15+ years, and you may be right. But that's not really long term security now, is it?

 

[JoeMerchant]

So in your analogy, what exactly is the "gas and lighter"? Another lawsuit that you will never win?

If Delta management said they just decided all flying should be brought in house and flown by Delta pilots because management wanted it that way, would you sue them? Could you sue them? Nope.

If Pinnacle ALPA underbids you and takes all your outsourced flying during the next RFP, will you sue them? Nope.

If Teamsters Chautauqua underbids you during the next RFP and takes all your company's outsourced lift, will you sue? Nope.

If non union SkyWest underbids you, will you sue? Nope.

So anyone is free and clear to take, underbid, bargain for, etc. the flying you currently do, except mainline pilots, according to your argument? Interesting logic, but it doesn't pass, well, the logic test.

Getting back to your threats, what will you do? Sue again? You won't win, ever. I've also heard several RJDC supporters/sympathizers threaten to underbid mainline pilots for planes they (the RJDC supporters) don't currently fly (i.e. 777's, etc) arrogantly thinking management will pick them to do the work. That's also not going to work. There is no shortage of companies (many are ALPA, many are not) that fly mainline planes for much, MUCH less than legacy mainline pilots, yet legacy managements are unable to subcontract them for the work. So that threat is empty and toothless.

You are obviously in a position in your career where your seniority at your company, within its status quo, gives you a status quo that you enjoy and don't want to give up. That's understandable. But any flying that your company does that's outsourced from another company is subject to the terms, conditions and constant risk inherent to that outsourced flying. No lawsuits and no threats are going to change that very basic fact. If you want your company to control its destiny, go Independence Air, and succeed long term at it. Then you will have your status quo plus control of your situation. Until then, you live RFP by RFP, and there may not always be an RFP.

You are free to bid for any flying that another company allows to be outsourced. But that company is free not to outsource it anymore. Not a whole lot you can do about that.

As for working together which you mentioned earlier, that would obviously be the preferred way. But you will have to accept that you have significantly less power than you may wish you have. IOW if you want permanent rights to legacy flying, you will need the help of mainline pilots to bargain for you, and pay for it themselves. That's probably not going to happen for free for you, and its definitely not going to happen without some sacrifice and risk on your part.

I've seen RJDC guys act extremely arrogant about the perceived leverage they thought (think) they have, when in fact they never had any at all. If you truly want to work together, you will have to make sacrifices and pony up a share of the cost and, yes, even the risk.

But don't say mainline pilots can't take their flying back anytime they want to, when other outsource providers can take it, or management can give it to others. That makes no sense. Mainline pilots can take back their company's flying anytime they are willing to negotiate for it, and you can't sue or threaten them not to. You can, however, sit back and hope they remain shortsighted as they have been for the last 15+ years, and you may be right. But that's not really long term security now, is it?

Simple....I and others won't support this union or any efforts by this union then.....If it really gets to the point you are talking about then my jumpseat will become off limits also.....

Lawsuits, decertification, jumpseat war....you name it.....My job does not belong to you....

You are proving that ALPA isn't a union and there is no brotherhood in this joke we call ALPA......

 

[Speedtape]

But don't say mainline pilots can't take their flying back anytime they want to, when other outsource providers can take it, or management can give it to others. That makes no sense. Mainline pilots can take back their company's flying anytime they are willing to negotiate for it, and you can't sue or threaten them not to. You can, however, sit back and hope they remain shortsighted as they have been for the last 15+ years, and you may be right. But that's not really long term security now, is it?

I'll say it! Mainline pilots can't and want take "their" flying back anytime they want!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They gave it up, forever, in 1996 when they opened Pandora's box for the entire industry!

Long term security??? Please define that for us. No one in this industry has security, much less long term! If you think you have long term security at a legend, ask an Eastern, Pan AM, Braniff, or TWA pilot what they think? You may even be able to ask a United pilot today.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'll say it! Mainline pilots can't and want take "their" flying back anytime they want!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They gave it up, forever, in 1996 when they opened Pandora's box for the entire industry!

Long term security??? Please define that for us. No one in this industry has security, much less long term! If you think you have long term security at a legend, ask an Eastern, Pan AM, Braniff, or TWA pilot what they think? You may even be able to ask a United pilot today.

Good point Speedtape....ask the 20 year USAir pilot who is being stapled to the bottom of the AWA/USair list about job security......

 

[dooork]

You think anything else matters?!?

The post I was speaking to was Mcnuggets "until Delta realizes how much you suck"...and the point was ASA has sucked (performance wise)for quite some time.....for whatever your reason.....and Delta kept them around.

ASA has a better contract now....after 5 years of stuggle....is it 5 years of struggle better?

 

[McNugent]

Did I offend you too dooork? I seem to be doing that a lot lately.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

IMHO, anyone that flies for Mesa is a Doooooooooork aka a Toooooooooooool aka a F'ing idiot.

The sooner Mesa/Freedom vanishes, the better the pilot group will be.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I've seen RJDC guys act extremely arrogant about the perceived leverage they thought (think) they have, when in fact they never had any at all. If you truly want to work together, you will have to make sacrifices and pony up a share of the cost and, yes, even the risk.

But don't say mainline pilots can't take their flying back anytime they want to, when other outsource providers can take it, or management can give it to others. That makes no sense. Mainline pilots can take back their company's flying anytime they are willing to negotiate for it, and you can't sue or threaten them not to. You can, however, sit back and hope they remain shortsighted as they have been for the last 15+ years, and you may be right. But that's not really long term security now, is it?

Maybe the RJDC guys acted arrogant in the past. They never should have had that entitlement attitude, and I never supported their cause.

I have not personally ever thought Delta pilots deserved their reputation for being pricks. .... I was wrong.

This is one of the most arrogant posts I have ever seen on FI

To come on here and threaten me by saying that my job exists only at the pleasure of the almighty Delta pilot, correct or incorrect is VERY arrogant. When issuing a statement like that, you will make many enemies. The fact that you don't care or dont think it matters makes you even more arrogant.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Simple....I and others won't support this union or any efforts by this union then.....If it really gets to the point you are talking about then my jumpseat will become off limits also.....

Lawsuits,
[I]What doesn't get immediately thrown out of court, you will lose in the end anyway. It makes no sense that any airline in the country can bid for current and future flying, and be awarded it, EXCEPT delta pilots. Good luck with that lawsuit, but you won't win one cent.[/I]

decertification,Go ahead and decertify. If the alternative is permanently surrendering all 76 seat flying to you as if you own it, when you clearly don't, then it would be better if you decertified. That way you would forever invalidate any DFR claims that you think you are entitled to. But before any of that, sue Pinnacle, SkyWest and Chautauqua for underbidding you first. Oh that's right, anyone can bid for 76 seat Delta flying...EXCEPT Delta pilots, according to your logic. :laugh:
jumpseat war That would hurt pilots in your group as badly as other pilots, and in the end is nowhere near...I mean not even close...to the missing leverage you seek to permanently own flying that doesn't belong to you. If you force another pilot group to chose between offline jumpseats and tons of 70 and 90 seaters, I don't think your secret weapon is going to do much damage at all.
....you name it No, you name it. You've already names several, yet all are ineffective. What else is up your sleeve?
.....My job does not belong to you....True, but apparently you don't even understand what your job is. You do not own 76 seat flying FOR DELTA (or United or anyone else). Mainline pilots can't take your ASA flying, but there is no such thing as ASA flying unless you go Independence Air, which is your right. Until then, you live by the good graces of mainline pilot scope exemptions AND mainline management's daily decisions. You've already lost flying to other regionals, and that I guess is OK to you, but God forbid if mainline pilots negotiate for that flying, THEN that's war? GMAB.

You are proving that ALPA isn't a union and there is no brotherhood in this joke we call ALPA......

Are mainline UNited pilots harmed by ALPA that they can't do mainline CAL flying? You have benefitted greatly over the years from mainline pilot shortsightedness and management greed, and the RJ years. While I understand your desire to continue that trend, the fact is you really have no say in it, and never did in the first place. If you want what you seek, go Independence Air, and succeed at it long term. Otherwise abide by the terms of being an outsource provider who does not control the flying you do.

 

[dooork]

Did I offend you too dooork? I seem to be doing that a lot lately.

No I am not offended. I was just saying you can suck (like ASA) and still fly for Delta.