So really why do we fly if we ain't gonna get paid?

[Munga]

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I am going through an early midlife.

I am currently about to leave aviation because I have finally figured out that I will never make the kind of living I truely want. I love flying - period. Its what I have wanted to do since I was about 6 years old. I now have been flying commercially for 10 years. 2.5 year of those were Part 135 king airs and the last 6 have been at Eagle where I haven't done anything but sit right seat in some pretty nice airplanes, make less than my age, and never have any holidays off while still on reserve.

So I have been offered a job, 9-5er, no experience, no training - and it is a decent pay raise with weekend and holidays off. Now I get to see my kids grow up, spend time with my wife, and possibly have quicker money.

But I love flying.....we used to be compensated for missing holidays and such, but 30K a year flying jets all over this country isn't worth it. And now a 6 year FO at NWA is making 60K - that means IF they start hiring after BK, say 3-4 years from now and I get hired, 6 years after that I could make 60K?? I won't upgrade at Eagle for another 1-3 years - if I am lucky.

No decent corporate outfit will call me back since I don't have a lot of pic, or time in type - besides I did the 6 days a week on call, and would rather not. Maybe I just want my cake and eat it too, but 60K 10 years from now won't support my family.

So why do we do this for so little? Is it the hope that we will one day return to the good ole days? Or is it purely that we are addictied to flying and will do it for almost no money? This is the hardest descsion - fly or be grounded until I can afford to do it for fun again.

 

[Sticky]

I hear ya man. I've been flying for 7 years now and still flying piston twins. Much like you, the thought of flying 50 pax in an RJ that used be a mainliner route really bothers me. The reason I'm still in pistons is because I'm able to pull in over $45K a year. I current can't afford to go down to $24K. Just like you, I've been looking to leave piloting. The best I can come up with is saving 15% a year and buy real estate ($5K single acre lots). After a few years, it's possible to do it full time and average $60K a year just buying and selling. Who knows?

What really stings my ass is how the regionals are now flying the same routes that the majors did just a few years ago for a fraction the pay. I hate seeing RJs flying between major cities. At some time, this has got to end.

Good luck with your endeavors.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I am going through an early midlife.

I am currently about to leave aviation because I have finally figured out that I will never make the kind of living I truely want. I love flying - period. Its what I have wanted to do since I was about 6 years old. I now have been flying commercially for 10 years. 2.5 year of those were Part 135 king airs and the last 6 have been at Eagle where I haven't done anything but sit right seat in some pretty nice airplanes, make less than my age, and never have any holidays off while still on reserve.

So I have been offered a job, 9-5er, no experience, no training - and it is a decent pay raise with weekend and holidays off. Now I get to see my kids grow up, spend time with my wife, and possibly have quicker money.

But I love flying.....we used to be compensated for missing holidays and such, but 30K a year flying jets all over this country isn't worth it. And now a 6 year FO at NWA is making 60K - that means IF they start hiring after BK, say 3-4 years from now and I get hired, 6 years after that I could make 60K?? I won't upgrade at Eagle for another 1-3 years - if I am lucky.

No decent corporate outfit will call me back since I don't have a lot of pic, or time in type - besides I did the 6 days a week on call, and would rather not. Maybe I just want my cake and eat it too, but 60K 10 years from now won't support my family.

So why do we do this for so little? Is it the hope that we will one day return to the good ole days? Or is it purely that we are addictied to flying and will do it for almost no money? This is the hardest descsion - fly or be grounded until I can afford to do it for fun again.

First off I would got the F out of Eagle ASAP. Does not take much to know there is ZERO future there....and poverty wages to boot...lovely. Why have you sat there for 6 years? I would be depressed too.

Why not utilize some of that charter experience you have and give the corp world a go? Yes your first step may be on call charter etc...but decent corp jobs have a much better QOL than most airlines these days (no "on call")...and yes, the pay is usually better also..

How about the fractionals? while they are certainly not par with a good corp gig as far as QOL and pay - they are many times better than any regional out there..

If neither seem reasonable and you are banking on a recovery at the airlines and a return to the way it was --- I would quit tomorrow also, because that simply will never happen.

good luck to ya!

 

[FN FAL]

So why do we do this for so little? Is it the hope that we will one day return to the good ole days? Or is it purely that we are addictied to flying and will do it for almost no money? This is the hardest descsion - fly or be grounded until I can afford to do it for fun again.

What good old days? My buddy's dad is recently retired NWA guy that started during the DC-3 era. I don't know much about how his retirement is doing, but I would think that his genration were the only ones to enjoy those large salaries long enough to make it worthwhile.

 

[Munga]

Well, I am not sure why I am still at Eagle. I guess it is my ever present optimistic side that thinks things will get better. I have been close to upgrade 3 times, only to get pushed back - so I think it is the upgrade I was looking for. You know, PIC time to make myself more competitive, yet keep my seniority and benies. I could care less if I am at an airline - its just pay, schedule, and stability.

I looked at the corporate jobs here in my home town and most of them are also on a part 135 or Fractional lease out. Those pilots are always gone, and the 7 on 7 off thing keeps me away from family a little too much. I have a number of friends who have jumped out - only to be in a similar situation and jumping from job to job every couple of years.

I agree that there are good corporate gigs out there, just haven't been able to land one. Partly, I think, because of the airline stink I carry and partly because I lack jet PIC time. The King Air jobs here are pretty meager - but maybe that is me being picky again.

Thanks for the response. One thing is for sure - get out of EAGLE ASAP.

 

[pilotyip]

munga, if you do a search you will find comments about guys who dropped out of flying only to come back later on. At age 39 after my third job in five years I got out of professional flying. But five years later I went back and have what I consider a good run since that move back into flying 16 years ago.

 

[avbug]

Here we go again. Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine.

Want cheese with that?

How someone can go ten years in their chosen career and not have a clue about the nature of the industry is absolutely beyond me. Increadible. Seems about every two weeks, for years on end, someone posts something like this here. Please talk me out of leaving aviation, I've put in my dues, I'm a ten year veteran (you're just getting to the point where you probably have some concept of how to close the door...and haven't scratched the surface of paying your "dues")...and I'm just discovering that it's a tough row to hoe. Wow.

6 years without an upgrade at eagle? Got caught with the boss's daughter? All right seat? How long do you sit in a position that's paying nothing and going nowhere before you figure it out? Six years?

Do what you have to do, and be happy doing it. If you're not happy, then do something else, already. Have a ball.

Ten years later, you're just getting it???

 

[Munga]

Whine? no. Just getting it? no.

I think you need a nap.

I do know how this industry works, I know there are ups and downs. I was warned of this by mentors who have spent years on furlough, jumping from job to job or have now retired. This down looks like their won't be much of a recovery so I am trying to get happy with a change. Evertime I have started to get a better job, something has gotten in the way. Did 2nd interviewe at Reno - AA bought them and shut the door. Hired at TWA, class cancelled by AA when they bought them too.

I guess I am just looking for opinions from people who got out, only to come back because they were miserable at a 9-5er. I am also looking at opinions about why we do this. Some of us are willing to give up more, some have different ideas about QOL.

This is a big descision, that needs to be looked at from every angle and I am trying to get different angles from other people to see if I have missed any.

Thanks for yours.

 

[FN FAL]

Here we go again. Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine.

Want cheese with that?

...Ten years later, you're just getting it???

We just hired a really neat guy, an EMB age 60 captain from Eagle. He seems to be doing pretty good on IOE, our pilot group really likes the guy. The sad part is, you'd think he'd be done with flying by now.

It's none of my business as to what this guy's reasons are for wanting to fly caravans in a rough weather, scheduled freight environment, but he is here none the less.

So you got that to look forward to, flying all your life at a regional, only to wind up having to make ends meet at age 60 flying freight.

 

[Almerick07]

If you want to keep flying make it work out for you. Dont complain about the pay or schedule, just do a little research and find something that will satisfy your requirements. No reason to get out of flying all together just get a little creative and find a way to make it work.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

really man...

you are whining after sitting at Eagle for the last SIX years?

did it take 6 full years to see that was not going anywhere, no place to make a career out of at least...get off your arse man, you are coming across as lazy.

you say the good corp gigs aren't calling, but your resume says Eagle F/O as your current job. humm....shocker.

Then, 7 on 7 off is too much time away from family?...yeah, those decent corp gigs dont go away for a week ever...GVs stay local...see ya tonight, dear. sheesh..even a Netjet job will keep you away. Want a day job in aviation? try American Eagle.

venting is one thing, but if you are seriously wondering why this is going nowhere and you cant figure it out....

you will have problems in any career, not just aviation!

 

[Munga]

Sigh....Look you guys, I am not whining. You all know we whine too much anyway.

I gave you the situation, and asked for your opinions that is all. I could bitch a lot more - but why. I just wanted to know how you felt about leaving if you were in a similar situation.

You are correct that 6 years as an Eagle FO on my resume looks bad. Just that I didn't think it would take me that long to find a decent jet job. I didn't really want to go back to props, until recently and those(around here) are pretty bad.

Get off my arse? That is what I am doing.

Day job? No, I like overnights, just not 6 in a row.

There are other factors that have kept me at Eagle. Like being 50 numbers away from upgrade twice. Can't just jump ship when things start to look good, but then they have always just fallen apart. I have a few friends who have been displaced out of their CA seats 4 times.(I should have taken the hint, eh? lol) Also, when you have a wife and kids, its tough to go to a place that may not have heath care.

I am now in a situation that allows me to jump.(wife's new job) So now that I can, I am just asking for opinions from people who have jumped and come back or others that have jumped and stayed away. For some people this is a only a job and for others it is a passion. I am trying to weigh that passion against QOL.

I will never truely leave, hopefully I can budget some GA flying and stay current.

Thanks for all your input.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Thank ALPA, for starters.

 

[PacoPollo]

Thank ALPA, for starters.

True Dat!!

 

[askdanny]

Sounds like you caught the flying bug.

Tough dilemma.

(BTW, ALPA is not a union. They say they are, but they are not. If ALPA was a union, we would not undercut each other.)


There is a season in your life for flying, there is a season to be with your family...

If you feel it's time for a change. Follow your heart.

 

[avbug]

I think you need a nap.

I do know how this industry works, I know there are ups and downs. I was warned of this by mentors who have spent years on furlough, jumping from job to job or have now retired. This down looks like their won't be much of a recovery so I am trying to get happy with a change. Evertime I have started to get a better job, something has gotten in the way. Did 2nd interviewe at Reno - AA bought them and shut the door. Hired at TWA, class cancelled by AA when they bought them too.

I guess I am just looking for opinions from people who got out, only to come back because they were miserable at a 9-5er. I am also looking at opinions about why we do this. Some of us are willing to give up more, some have different ideas about QOL.

This is a big descision, that needs to be looked at from every angle and I am trying to get different angles from other people to see if I have missed any

Yes, you asked, and you were answered by someone who had done that. Left, come back, changed jobs, taken second and third jobs, and done it more than a few times. You just didn't like the answer. And yes, I always could use more sleep...but that wouldn't change my reply.

Talk me out of it, cruel world. I'm thinking of leaving the industry. Can anybody give me a good reason not to do it?

No...we can't. Have a ball.

 

[Regul8r]

Alot of people don't want to hack a 9-5er. You can get lucky and have a decent boss to work for or you can get a D****Bag. Chances are you'll get the latter. A desk job will give you things you can't get in a flying career, and vice versa. Flying = Great Job with a shaky lifestyle. Desk Job = Can be boring as H*LL, but at 5pm, you get to do what you want to! Do some research, there are plenty of companies out there that start you off with 2 weeks paid vacation and decent 401k programs. Some companies even have workout facilities. Either way, you know that a lifestyle can be made at either job so just do what your family needs you to do. Just a word of caution though, we did have a guy come to work at my company who used to be a pilot and sadly enough it did kill him (J/K)

 

[Munga]

Yes, you asked, and you were answered by someone who had done that. Left, come back, changed jobs, taken second and third jobs, and done it more than a few times. You just didn't like the answer. And yes, I always could use more sleep...but that wouldn't change my reply.

Talk me out of it, cruel world. I'm thinking of leaving the industry. Can anybody give me a good reason not to do it?

No...we can't. Have a ball.

Well, avbug, you could have said that before - I had no idea you left, only to come back. Instead you gave me a drill seargent response about not whining and telling me to suck it up. This ain't the army, and I am pulling my sack up and making the change.

Thanks and good luck.

 

[RichardRambone]

Im just getting started and reason for it is Im young, single, and only a little debt (just bought a car). I love flying and hope it takes me to interesting places. I do fear someday that Ill be like you guys and freak out about having no stable future and sh!thole pay. I plan on staying away from the airlines for now and we'll just see where aviation takes me. I actually dont plan on being simply a pilot for my career but I dont know what else I can do just yet. Good luck to all.

 

[Ralgha]

So I have been offered a job, 9-5er, no experience, no training - and it is a decent pay raise with weekend and holidays off. Now I get to see my kids grow up, spend time with my wife, and possibly have quicker money.

So you think you'll be done at 5 and have weekends off huh? Not with most well paid 9-5 jobs. You take your work home with you often (doesn't happen in the airlines), and you'll be in on the weekends too. Best part is you'll be on a salary so you don't get paid extra for it.