SMS Implementation

[G3G4]

For you guys out there who don't have one already implemented where are you going to have a manual made up for your operation? And have you been audited yet by IS-BAO? How was the process?

 

[stupidpilot]

We got a generic IS-BAO SMS here for $950:

http://www.ibac.org/is_bao/ordering-is-bao

Haven't done the audit yet.

 

[PilotKitch]

With regard to the IS-BAO certification, I have been told having this approval is like a charter company being ARGUS approved..... Doesn't really carry any weight and is just another multi-thousand dollar audit that is unnecessary?

Also, that having a SMS program in place is the only requirement for Europe not necessarily what is in the program.

 

[TigerDriver]

we went through a vendor, implemented an SMS, went through the IS-BAO audit, got the certificate on the wall. The idea of a safety management system is "blessed" by upper management but at the first intersection of safety vs. mission accomplishment, the mission takes priority. PM if you want any specifics....

 

[stupidpilot]

With regard to the IS-BAO certification, I have been told having this approval is like a charter company being ARGUS approved..... Doesn't really carry any weight and is just another multi-thousand dollar audit that is unnecessary?

Also, that having a SMS program in place is the only requirement for Europe not necessarily what is in the program.

That is absolutely not true. The IS-BAO program it the one that has been accepted by ICAO as the defacto framework for a SMS. The SMS must conform to the IS-BAO standards in order to be approved for operations within Europe. The ICAO SMS standards are derived from a number of sources, predominantly ISO 9000.

Also, the audits are not that expensive if you find the right auditor. We were quoted on $2500-$3500. This is from an approved auditor that is authorized to issue the certification.

 

[siouxicide]

What about fltplan.com's program? http://www.fltsafety.com/SMSinfo.htm
I know little to nothing about all this except that ICAO countries are on board and we probably will be soon. Just another burden methinks. Next we'll have to get doctor's notes to go flying.

 

[G3G4]

We also bought the is-bao generic SMS manual and cd rom. Can we as a flight department use that manual as our own SMS or do we have to write our own manual based on that one for our company specific? We are 91 and only operate one airplane.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

We also bought the is-bao generic SMS manual and cd rom. Can we as a flight department use that manual as our own SMS or do we have to write our own manual based on that one for our company specific? We are 91 and only operate one airplane.

You dont need an SMS to go anywhere.

But yes, you can use this manual to develop an SMS of your own then get it audited if you desire "IS-BAO Certification"

Hopefully the FAA will have some guidance on this soon.

 

[G3G4]

You dont need an SMS to go anywhere.

But yes, you can use this manual to develop an SMS of your own then get it audited if you desire "IS-BAO Certification"

Hopefully the FAA will have some guidance on this soon.

Well I was under the impression you did need a SMS program in place by nov this year to operate in Europe, carribean, Mexico etc. Now i know its not a dead line etched in stone but.....

 

[wildbill]

Used the generic as a reference ,but created a SMS system using information the company had in place. Very time consuming. Audited by three firms, IS-BAO, ARG/US, & WYVERN. Passed all three. It is expensive. You can get an ICAO version on line for free, but very confusing. What else is new from Europe.

 

[stupidpilot]

You dont need an SMS to go anywhere.

But yes, you can use this manual to develop an SMS of your own then get it audited if you desire "IS-BAO Certification"

Hopefully the FAA will have some guidance on this soon.

Actually, the FAA has quite a bit of guidance:

http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/sms/

 

[stupidpilot]

Used the generic as a reference ,but created a SMS system using information the company had in place. Very time consuming. Audited by three firms, IS-BAO, ARG/US, & WYVERN. Passed all three. It is expensive. You can get an ICAO version on line for free, but very confusing. What else is new from Europe.

I think Wyvern and ARGUS are either going to go by the wayside or have to adapt their program for IS-BAO. Personally, I think they are a huge ripoff. They are incredibly expensive for what they give you.

 

[jross]

The information that we received at NBAA was that come November 18 if you want to operate in Bermuda or The Cayman Islands you must have a SMS in place. Their government representative stated that after November 18 if you came and where not compliant they would allow you to stay but when you leave don't come back unless you are in compliance.

 

[Bleeds On]

Is an audit required? I'm not seeing it but I'm late to the party here.

 

[stupidpilot]

Is an audit required? I'm not seeing it but I'm late to the party here.

Yes. You cannot receive an IS-BAO approved SMS certification without an audit from an independent auditor.

 

[ttflyer]

That is absolutely not true. The IS-BAO program it the one that has been accepted by ICAO as the defacto framework for a SMS. The SMS must conform to the IS-BAO standards in order to be approved for operations within Europe.

This seems to come up about every two weeks on Flightinfo... I'll ask again, since this whole thing is clear as mud. Could you please show me the exact ICAO regulation which states that a part 91 operator in Europe must have an IS-BAO approved SMS program? I don't believe such a regulation exists. The best I can tell, there is only a statement that a SMS program must be in effect - not who approved it.

Since the FAA is my regulatory agency, and they have no framework or basis for approval of an SMS program, there is no such thing as an "approved" SMS program for an N-registered part 91 operator.

The fact is, since the guidance from the EU is murky at best, we will have to wait and see if crews have problems during SAFA checks after the drop dead date.

 

[SabreFlyR]

This seems to come up about every two weeks on Flightinfo... I'll ask again, since this whole thing is clear as mud. Could you please show me the exact ICAO regulation which states that a part 91 operator in Europe must have an IS-BAO approved SMS program? I don't believe such a regulation exists. The best I can tell, there is only a statement that a SMS program must be in effect - not who approved it.

Since the FAA is my regulatory agency, and they have no framework or basis for approval of an SMS program, there is no such thing as an "approved" SMS program for an N-registered part 91 operator.

The fact is, since the guidance from the EU is murky at best, we will have to wait and see if crews have problems during SAFA checks after the drop dead date.

It is an ICAO rule, we per the FAR's are required to comply with the ICAO regulations when operating in international airspace. I have been told the Bermuda will enforce the SMS requirement starting Nov 18 and the Cayman Islands and Turks & Caicos will start enforcement in December.
YMMV

http://www.nbaa.org/admin/sms/faq/

 

[stupidpilot]

This seems to come up about every two weeks on Flightinfo... I'll ask again, since this whole thing is clear as mud. Could you please show me the exact ICAO regulation which states that a part 91 operator in Europe must have an IS-BAO approved SMS program? I don't believe such a regulation exists. The best I can tell, there is only a statement that a SMS program must be in effect - not who approved it.

Since the FAA is my regulatory agency, and they have no framework or basis for approval of an SMS program, there is no such thing as an "approved" SMS program for an N-registered part 91 operator.

The fact is, since the guidance from the EU is murky at best, we will have to wait and see if crews have problems during SAFA checks after the drop dead date.

This article says yes:

http://proairman.com/understanding-the-sms-part-4/

Commercial operators are already required to have an SMS; and
By November 2010 private operators will be required to have an SMS.

 

[jross]

My understanding, I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, is that ICAO has adopted the IS-BAO format to be used in developing an SMS. Operators are allowed to develop and implement their own SMS and if they do this no audit would be required. If an operator wants to insure they are developing a SMS that is compliant with ICAO requirements they should use the IS-BAO format and pay for the audit.

 

[stupidpilot]

How will you prove that your SMS is IS-BAO compliant without an audit? You know how the govt works. I doubt they'll take your word for it that your SMS conforms to the standard. You must be able to prove it. The only way to do that is by having an audit from an approved auditor and a certificate of compliance.