SMS Implementation

[G3G4]

For you guys out there who don't have one already implemented where are you going to have a manual made up for your operation? And have you been audited yet by IS-BAO? How was the process?

 

[stupidpilot]

We got a generic IS-BAO SMS here for $950:

http://www.ibac.org/is_bao/ordering-is-bao

Haven't done the audit yet.

 

[PilotKitch]

With regard to the IS-BAO certification, I have been told having this approval is like a charter company being ARGUS approved..... Doesn't really carry any weight and is just another multi-thousand dollar audit that is unnecessary?

Also, that having a SMS program in place is the only requirement for Europe not necessarily what is in the program.

 

[TigerDriver]

we went through a vendor, implemented an SMS, went through the IS-BAO audit, got the certificate on the wall. The idea of a safety management system is "blessed" by upper management but at the first intersection of safety vs. mission accomplishment, the mission takes priority. PM if you want any specifics....

 

[stupidpilot]

With regard to the IS-BAO certification, I have been told having this approval is like a charter company being ARGUS approved..... Doesn't really carry any weight and is just another multi-thousand dollar audit that is unnecessary?

Also, that having a SMS program in place is the only requirement for Europe not necessarily what is in the program.

That is absolutely not true. The IS-BAO program it the one that has been accepted by ICAO as the defacto framework for a SMS. The SMS must conform to the IS-BAO standards in order to be approved for operations within Europe. The ICAO SMS standards are derived from a number of sources, predominantly ISO 9000.

Also, the audits are not that expensive if you find the right auditor. We were quoted on $2500-$3500. This is from an approved auditor that is authorized to issue the certification.

 

[siouxicide]

What about fltplan.com's program? http://www.fltsafety.com/SMSinfo.htm
I know little to nothing about all this except that ICAO countries are on board and we probably will be soon. Just another burden methinks. Next we'll have to get doctor's notes to go flying.

 

[G3G4]

We also bought the is-bao generic SMS manual and cd rom. Can we as a flight department use that manual as our own SMS or do we have to write our own manual based on that one for our company specific? We are 91 and only operate one airplane.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

We also bought the is-bao generic SMS manual and cd rom. Can we as a flight department use that manual as our own SMS or do we have to write our own manual based on that one for our company specific? We are 91 and only operate one airplane.

You dont need an SMS to go anywhere.

But yes, you can use this manual to develop an SMS of your own then get it audited if you desire "IS-BAO Certification"

Hopefully the FAA will have some guidance on this soon.

 

[G3G4]

You dont need an SMS to go anywhere.

But yes, you can use this manual to develop an SMS of your own then get it audited if you desire "IS-BAO Certification"

Hopefully the FAA will have some guidance on this soon.

Well I was under the impression you did need a SMS program in place by nov this year to operate in Europe, carribean, Mexico etc. Now i know its not a dead line etched in stone but.....

 

[wildbill]

Used the generic as a reference ,but created a SMS system using information the company had in place. Very time consuming. Audited by three firms, IS-BAO, ARG/US, & WYVERN. Passed all three. It is expensive. You can get an ICAO version on line for free, but very confusing. What else is new from Europe.

 

[stupidpilot]

You dont need an SMS to go anywhere.

But yes, you can use this manual to develop an SMS of your own then get it audited if you desire "IS-BAO Certification"

Hopefully the FAA will have some guidance on this soon.

Actually, the FAA has quite a bit of guidance:

http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/sms/

 

[stupidpilot]

Used the generic as a reference ,but created a SMS system using information the company had in place. Very time consuming. Audited by three firms, IS-BAO, ARG/US, & WYVERN. Passed all three. It is expensive. You can get an ICAO version on line for free, but very confusing. What else is new from Europe.

I think Wyvern and ARGUS are either going to go by the wayside or have to adapt their program for IS-BAO. Personally, I think they are a huge ripoff. They are incredibly expensive for what they give you.

 

[jross]

The information that we received at NBAA was that come November 18 if you want to operate in Bermuda or The Cayman Islands you must have a SMS in place. Their government representative stated that after November 18 if you came and where not compliant they would allow you to stay but when you leave don't come back unless you are in compliance.

 

[Bleeds On]

Is an audit required? I'm not seeing it but I'm late to the party here.

 

[stupidpilot]

Is an audit required? I'm not seeing it but I'm late to the party here.

Yes. You cannot receive an IS-BAO approved SMS certification without an audit from an independent auditor.

 

[ttflyer]

That is absolutely not true. The IS-BAO program it the one that has been accepted by ICAO as the defacto framework for a SMS. The SMS must conform to the IS-BAO standards in order to be approved for operations within Europe.

This seems to come up about every two weeks on Flightinfo... I'll ask again, since this whole thing is clear as mud. Could you please show me the exact ICAO regulation which states that a part 91 operator in Europe must have an IS-BAO approved SMS program? I don't believe such a regulation exists. The best I can tell, there is only a statement that a SMS program must be in effect - not who approved it.

Since the FAA is my regulatory agency, and they have no framework or basis for approval of an SMS program, there is no such thing as an "approved" SMS program for an N-registered part 91 operator.

The fact is, since the guidance from the EU is murky at best, we will have to wait and see if crews have problems during SAFA checks after the drop dead date.

 

[SabreFlyR]

This seems to come up about every two weeks on Flightinfo... I'll ask again, since this whole thing is clear as mud. Could you please show me the exact ICAO regulation which states that a part 91 operator in Europe must have an IS-BAO approved SMS program? I don't believe such a regulation exists. The best I can tell, there is only a statement that a SMS program must be in effect - not who approved it.

Since the FAA is my regulatory agency, and they have no framework or basis for approval of an SMS program, there is no such thing as an "approved" SMS program for an N-registered part 91 operator.

The fact is, since the guidance from the EU is murky at best, we will have to wait and see if crews have problems during SAFA checks after the drop dead date.

It is an ICAO rule, we per the FAR's are required to comply with the ICAO regulations when operating in international airspace. I have been told the Bermuda will enforce the SMS requirement starting Nov 18 and the Cayman Islands and Turks & Caicos will start enforcement in December.
YMMV

http://www.nbaa.org/admin/sms/faq/

 

[stupidpilot]

This seems to come up about every two weeks on Flightinfo... I'll ask again, since this whole thing is clear as mud. Could you please show me the exact ICAO regulation which states that a part 91 operator in Europe must have an IS-BAO approved SMS program? I don't believe such a regulation exists. The best I can tell, there is only a statement that a SMS program must be in effect - not who approved it.

Since the FAA is my regulatory agency, and they have no framework or basis for approval of an SMS program, there is no such thing as an "approved" SMS program for an N-registered part 91 operator.

The fact is, since the guidance from the EU is murky at best, we will have to wait and see if crews have problems during SAFA checks after the drop dead date.

This article says yes:

http://proairman.com/understanding-the-sms-part-4/

Commercial operators are already required to have an SMS; and
By November 2010 private operators will be required to have an SMS.

 

[jross]

My understanding, I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, is that ICAO has adopted the IS-BAO format to be used in developing an SMS. Operators are allowed to develop and implement their own SMS and if they do this no audit would be required. If an operator wants to insure they are developing a SMS that is compliant with ICAO requirements they should use the IS-BAO format and pay for the audit.

 

[stupidpilot]

How will you prove that your SMS is IS-BAO compliant without an audit? You know how the govt works. I doubt they'll take your word for it that your SMS conforms to the standard. You must be able to prove it. The only way to do that is by having an audit from an approved auditor and a certificate of compliance.

 

[ttflyer]

It is an ICAO rule, we per the FAR's are required to comply with the ICAO regulations when operating in international airspace. I have been told the Bermuda will enforce the SMS requirement starting Nov 18 and the Cayman Islands and Turks & Caicos will start enforcement in December.
YMMV

http://www.nbaa.org/admin/sms/faq/

The requirement for SMS was not my question. My question is where does it state that operators are required to go through the IS-BAO process to comply. If true, ICAO is requiring all N-registered operators to significantly alter the way they operate, whether they already have a SMS program or not, and undergo expensive audits. Why does the FAA even bother to exist any more?

 

[ttflyer]

This article says yes:

http://proairman.com/understanding-the-sms-part-4/

Commercial operators are already required to have an SMS; and
By November 2010 private operators will be required to have an SMS.

Sorry, but that is not a link to an EU or ICAO regulation. The specific regulation which requires SMS does not, to the best of my knowledge, mention IS-BAO.

 

[stupidpilot]

The requirement for SMS was not my question. My question is where does it state that operators are required to go through the IS-BAO process to comply. If true, ICAO is requiring all N-registered operators to significantly alter the way they operate, whether they already have a SMS program or not, and undergo expensive audits. Why does the FAA even bother to exist any more?

No, you do not have to go through IS-BAO that is true. However, If your SMS is IS-BAO certified then you automatically are approved for EU ops. If it is not IS-BAO type certified SMS, then you must go through an alternative certification process to prove it conforms to ICAO standards for an SMS. I would guess that process would be a lot more difficult and probably end up being more expensive.

 

[ttflyer]

No, you do not have to go through IS-BAO that is true. However, If your SMS is IS-BAO certified then you automatically are approved for EU ops. If it is not IS-BAO type certified SMS, then you must go through an alternative certification process to prove it conforms to ICAO standards for an SMS. I would guess that process would be a lot more difficult and probably end up being more expensive.

That is a fair answer. I guess the question will be whether or not the non IS-BAO acceptance process is a lot more difficult and expensive. For operators who travel to EU regularly, this is a no-brainer. Do IS-BAO. But like the ETS, the EU and ICAO seem to completely disregard those operators who may only operate in EU airspace once every year or two. For those operators, when you add up the costs of IS-BAO certification, ETS compliance and whatever else, the per-trip cost and hassle gets prohibitively high...

 

[SabreFlyR]

The requirement for SMS was not my question. My question is where does it state that operators are required to go through the IS-BAO process to comply. If true, ICAO is requiring all N-registered operators to significantly alter the way they operate, whether they already have a SMS program or not, and undergo expensive audits. Why does the FAA even bother to exist any more?

Sorry, I see what your saying now.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

AFS-900*****N*****8900.133 *****8/30/10
*****

FAA Response to ICAO SMS Requirements.*****The FAA filed a “difference” with ICAO detailing that it is not currently in full compliance with the ICAO requirement, but is considering SMS rulemaking. The FAA’s difference was neither a deviation nor an exemption, but a notification to ICAO member states of the inability to meet the January 1, 2009 deadline. In our statement of difference, we explained that our rulemaking process requires thorough analysis and stakeholder input and therefore requires more time to complete regulatory action.
*****
*****
(1) After considering a nation’s difference, ICAO member states decide whether to honor a difference on the part of an international operator who enters and operates within their airspace. The AFS SMS Program Office is working with numerous foreign aviation agencies—both individually and as part of the Safety Management International Collaboration Group—to mitigate instances where carriers are denied entry or operation in a foreign state’s airspace.

(2) The FAA was assured that, currently, Transport Canada and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), or any of their member States, do not intend to restrict operations within their airspace due to noncompliance with ICAO SMS requirements.

 

[ttflyer]

(2) The FAA was assured that, currently, Transport Canada and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), or any of their member States, do not intend to restrict operations within their airspace due to noncompliance with ICAO SMS requirements.

And that statement, if it turns out to be true, means that not only will a SAFA inspector not ask for an IS-BAO approved SMS program, they won't ask for a SMS program from a Part 91 operator at all. Which goes back to my original statement - This whole thing is clear as mud.

You've got some operators who state IS-BAO is only game in town while other say nothing is required. These are not idiots saying these things, they are intelligent, professional, well-reasoned people who are attempting to meet whatever requirements exist.

The fact of the matter is that ICAO, the FAA, and EU is are so collectively screwed up about this (and ETS) that no one knows if they are coming or going. And you can bet this is a moving target - It's going to change six times in the next two years. I'm not yet ready to commit to IS-BAO if I don't have to. Time will tell whether or not I have to...

 

[Bleeds On]

So theoretically a guy could develop his own, screw the audit, roll the dice on getting ramped, and say oopsy daisy if they don't like it. Granted I'm talking about those of us that cross this great country's border but a few times a year. Heck, Canada has never once cared to come take a look anyhow.
This whole thing seems to be nothing more than leaving a paper trail of what we do before every flight anyhow; think about being safe and the risks associated. ADM comes to mind...

 

[stupidpilot]

That is a fair answer. I guess the question will be whether or not the non IS-BAO acceptance process is a lot more difficult and expensive. For operators who travel to EU regularly, this is a no-brainer. Do IS-BAO. But like the ETS, the EU and ICAO seem to completely disregard those operators who may only operate in EU airspace once every year or two. For those operators, when you add up the costs of IS-BAO certification, ETS compliance and whatever else, the per-trip cost and hassle gets prohibitively high...

As far as I can tell it's really not all that costly if you do it in house. If you buy the IBAC IS-BAO generic GOM and adapt yours to it then all that is $950 plus all your time adapting it to your GOM.This is the part that took me a really long time. You have to ensure the IS-BAO standard is at least as restrictive as FAA requirements. Then an audit, which is good for either 24 or 36 months is only a couple, three thousand if you get the right auditor. Compare that to ARG/US or WYVERN and that's pretty cheap in the world of aviation.

 

[wildbill]

During all of the conversation on the SMS we have overlooked training on using it. I might suggest that FlightSafety has an online course for SMS. The course outline says 5 hours, but I found it to be more like 10. It will not let you cut the corner and move on. I'm not sure of the cost of the course, but upon completetion you receive a certificate which you can show the auditors for credit towards your training. You do have to have it.