SMS, FOM & SOP's

[ILOVEBEER]

Who are you guys using for your SMS program? How about FOM/SOP's for part 91? We can't seem to find anyone we like.

Thanks

 

[BoilerUP]

You can write your own FOM/SOP using the NBAA template available for members on their website. Same for SMS; you can do it in-house although a lot of folks seem to be using PRISM by ARG/US.

The biggest beef I have with this whole charade known as SMS is that there is no way, short of an ISBAO audit, to be 100% sure that you meet "the standard" (because nobody has defined with the f'in standard is).

 

[Gulfstream 200]

My .02 --- as far as I can tell you simply don't need an SMS for Part 91 - Domestic or International....not now, not in November, not at all.

Will you eventually - most likely. The FAA NPRM is supposedly due out later this summer that will give guidance - if Part 91 is included is still in question....

You can buy the SMS toolkit and grind through it if you don't blow your head off first or if you are looking for a gold star..:laugh:...you can also call up the new league of SMS scare nazis aka "consultants" and they will spend a few hours creating a cookie cutter SMS/FOM/ERP for about $8000. Just do yourself a favor and be sure to ask them "Is an SMS required anywhere in the world for an N registered Part 91 airplane?" Its always a pretty funny answer..even better call them out as clowns on NBAA Airmail and watch them crawl out of the woodwork with long eloquent posts on how you should embrace the safe future of corporate aviation....just contact them for more info and a price. LOL.

Its a huge scam, but it yes MAY be required sometime in the future so knock yourself out if you want to be proactive and guess. Nothing wrong with busy work I suppose. Personally waiting to see what the FAA officially says makes more sense to me. In the grand scheme its not a lot of money, but its just the start IMO.

It may have a place in large departments or airlines, but I just can't imagine how it will do anything for a 2-3 pilots single airplane operation.

BTW - those who can stand the immense stupidity of it all might want to become ISBAO "auditors"...looks to me like it takes 2-3 days and about $2500 to get "accredited"

:laugh:

 

[sleepy]

Who are you guys using for your SMS program? How about FOM/SOP's for part 91? We can't seem to find anyone we like.

Thanks

We do it all in house. It isn't that hard. You can find templates and examples all over the internet. Find someone who has already done it and ask to benchmark (copy) them.

 

[BN2A]

ICAO Annex VI PART I for commercial aircraft(Part 135 and 121) was due January 1, 2009.

ICAO Annex VI Part II applies to non-commercial aircraft (Part 91) and compliance date is November 18, 2010.

This is the rule that requires an SMS, and your manual requirements. IS-BAO is the only game in town for certification because the FAA is so far behind(go figure) Good luck obtaining landing permits in the EU after this date for noncompliant Part 91 aircraft.

 

[ttflyer]

ICAO Annex VI PART I for commercial aircraft(Part 135 and 121) was due January 1, 2009.

ICAO Annex VI Part II applies to non-commercial aircraft (Part 91) and compliance date is November 18, 2010.

This is the rule that requires an SMS, and your manual requirements. IS-BAO is the only game in town for certification because the FAA is so far behind(go figure) Good luck obtaining landing permits in the EU after this date for noncompliant Part 91 aircraft.

This is well plowed ground. When did IS-BAO become a "certifying" authority for US Part 91 aircraft? The point is that until the FAA comes up with something, we can not have a "certified" SMS program. We can have an IS-BAO compliant program which the EU may or may not accept. We can also have a non IS-BAO compliant SMS program which the EU may or may not accept. It's all just a scam - like emissions trading.

So what's safer:

A. Changing your operation to comply with IS-BAO (which probably lowers safety by requiring personnel to change their procedures and which still isn't "certified").

or

B. Paying some hack to come up with a "certified" (not really) SMS program that you put on shelf and only pull out to show some government stooge when you fly to the EU.

or

C. Using your existing SMS program (assuming you have one) and show that to the stooge while explaining there is no such thing as a "certified" SMS program for U.S. Part 91 aircraft...

I don't have an answer, and neither does anyone else... Until we get some guidance, we just have to make our best guess hope it works out.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

ICAO Annex VI PART I for commercial aircraft(Part 135 and 121) was due January 1, 2009.

ICAO Annex VI Part II applies to non-commercial aircraft (Part 91) and compliance date is November 18, 2010.

This is the rule that requires an SMS, and your manual requirements. IS-BAO is the only game in town for certification because the FAA is so far behind(go figure) Good luck obtaining landing permits in the EU after this date for noncompliant Part 91 aircraft.

"Landing permits?" - does one need those in the EU?

Have you contacted any countries you go to and asked them if an SMS is/will be a requirement for any PT91 aircraft? or will they ask you to turn around at the FIR because you dont have an ISBAO approved SMS in place? This would be the height of the scare scam by the legion of sms consultants!

ICAO Annex 6 states thats its up to PT91 operators to comply (or not) and since when did ICAO become any type of regulatory agency?

EASA has NO SMS requirement.

The FAA has no SMS requirement. They will maybe put out a NPRM this summer, and its not expected to have any mention of Part 91 in it.

Canada is the only country with an SMS requirement (imagine that) but again they have made it clear no US aircraft need comply until the FAA says they need to, and how to.

Is is bad to create an SMS? Id say no. Whatever makes you happy and keeps you busy...Just don't think its required for a Pt91 aircraft to operate anywhere, because its not! I'd prefer to do it once, and will fully comply once its known what we need to comply to.

We are a very small operation, we require no office time, we don't write manuals we buy them. With full intent on simply buying an SMS we did some research and talked to plenty of ""consultants" and still cant get a real answer on what is required (other than about $15,000) Guess we can maybe buy one later on...

If anyone really knows, please let us know!

 

[G4G5]

EASA doesn't take over for another 2 years until then (after 11/2010) it's up to the individual country. So do you need an SMS, yes. Is anyone going to police it? Who knows.

One thing for sure is if you get ramp checked (SAFA) checked and you don't have on you could get dinged. How bad who knows but IMHO, it's not like a government to give up on a free source of revenue. They could have a field day with this.

I am not smart enough to remember to call all of the countries that I will be traveling to ahead of time and ask them if they are requiring an SMS. The answer is going to be yes anyway. It's not worth my time and effort.

For me it's a whole lot easier to buy the tool kit and bang one out now

 

[Gulfstream 200]

EASA doesn't take over for another 2 years until then (after 11/2010) it's up to the individual country. So do you need an SMS, yes. Is anyone going to police it? Who knows.

One thing for sure is if you get ramp checked (SAFA) checked and you don't have on you could get dinged. How bad who knows but IMHO, it's not like a government to give up on a free source of revenue. They could have a field day with this.

I am not smart enough to remember to call all of the countries that I will be traveling to ahead of time and ask them if they are requiring an SMS. The answer is going to be yes anyway. It's not worth my time and effort.

For me it's a whole lot easier to buy the tool kit and bang one out now

So....I DO need an SMS? by when?

Is it on the SAFA inspection form? I can get fined in the EU for not having an SMS if I get SAFA checked???

(yes, these are real questions, not smart a$$ comments)

I have a copy of the toolkit, but don't have the desire/patience to make an SMS. I have no problem paying someone 15K to do it all if I we need it.

Personally I cant see how it will make any 2-3 pilot operation safer, I just want to know what is required and when I need to buy it by..thats all!

 

[G4G5]

The answer to your question is Nov 12,2010.

Today their is no fine or requirement for an Sms. On 11/12/10 any ICAO nation according to the annex has the right to require an SMS. The way the annex is written any ICAO nation inspector can come up and ask ," show me your license registration,a/w cert and your SMS" whether or not that nation chooses to ask for the SMS who knows.

But it's not going away because once easa takes over it will be on a safa check list

 

[ttflyer]

The answer to your question is Nov 12,2010.

I agree it would be a good idea to have some functioning SMS program in place on 12-NOV-2010.

I take exception to the idea that it MUST be IS-BAO "certified." As long as you include something that looks like SMS in your operations manual, who are the EU to say you are not compliant (yes, I know the answer).

This whole thing is clear as mud. Until somebody gets fined or violated over there, we do not know how to comply. It's as simple as that...

 

[G4G5]

The manual doesn't have to be ISBAO certified. An independent, home made SMS may or may not work. Here's the problem; ICAO has come up with the SMS requirement as of today the only "approved" ICAO SMS program belongs to IBAC. All ICAO nations have acknowledged IBAC's SMS. So, theoretically on Nov 13, 2010 when a French or German inspector comes up for a ramp check you already have an approved French or German SMS.

If you feel like trying to explain to a foreign inspector that your homemade, "not approved" SMS program is just as good, have at it. For me the easy route is to buy the IBAC tool kit and fill in the blanks.

The US has filed for a difference to the ICAO annex for the implementation of the SMS, so the FAA/FSDO has no guidlines for approval. Ironicly they plan on coming out with something in 2013, one year after EASA has already put the SMS program in place. Once again the Europeans are driving the bus and the FAA with is just following along.