SLI Arbitration/Negotiation Deadline Still 11/20

[ACL65PILOT]

I have been talking about ALK for two years now. Then and Hawaiian would fit nicely in to our family at DAL.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2....did you know that there are NWA pilots who hired on to fly 19 seat Metroliners?.....How does that fit into the "career expectations" argument.....I believe they even got DOH.....

There were Delta pilots who flew DC-3s, what's your point?

 

[JoeMerchant]

There were Delta pilots who flew DC-3s, what's your point?

There are current NWA....now DAL pilots....who hired into the Metroliner....a 19 seat turboprop.

You are an advocate of "career expectations" as a way of merging lists are you not? How do these pilots relate to DAL pilots in terms of "career expectations"?

Funny you should mention the DC3 at Delta.....The DAL MEC had cups at the 2002 BOD with a Delta DC3 circled by the words:

Delta Comair ASA "the Delta Nation"

 

[General Lee]

Yup, and those business plans have changed about six times since then. When was that last AE supposed to be out? What am I hearing now? January? In the meantime, that bad, old NWA PWA keeps awarding new positions, every month, like clockwork.

"No significant changes" and from the CEO of NWA plays very well at the arbitration hearings.

Better yet, it makes fantastic testimony about how you can't make any agreement (especially one like a SLI) based on what management MIGHT do.

Nu

Kinda like all those retirements you guys WERE going to have? Your A320FO on the stand loved giving speaches trying to convince anyone that attrition should be used in this case. Also, I could give you a "trip report" from the guys who flew Bastain back from MSP after your meeting to ATL, and give details on what he may have or may not have stated. If you want it, I can PM you. And does "no significant" changes mean from what Steenland initially stated about the DC9s going to 41 from 63? And our AE would benefit us only, since the training would all be completed prior to the SOC, so it doesn't really matter when it is done. The delay was due to the Boeing Strike, which is now over BTW. But, you knew that.... Looks like we will get those 777s next year, along with the 737-700s left on order. Your computer model said you would have ALL of your 18 787s by July 1st of next year. Will that happen? Make sure you tell Bloch.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

nevermind

 

[FDJ2]

You are an advocate of "career expectations" as a way of merging lists are you not? How do these pilots relate to DAL pilots in terms of "career expectations"?

Career expectations are subject to "the vagaries" of this industry. Nevertheless, none of the NWA pilots are bringing metroliner jobs to the merger. So what's your point?

I'm an advocate of maintaining what you bring to the merger, or put another way maintain jobs, maintain pay, maintain status, no wind falls at anothers expense and minimize detrimental effects to career expectations. Sound familiar?

 

[FDJ2]

Kinda like all those retirements you guys WERE going to have? Your A320FO on the stand loved giving speaches trying to convince anyone that attrition should be used in this case.

Memorable quotes from the hearing:

CROSS-EXAMINATION of NALPA witness LK

Question: Just not going in any particular order, at least not in the order of the slides. Let me just start by asking you, with respect to this so-called attrition argument that you're sponsoring, can you tell us whether there has been any case decided under ALPA merger policy in which an arbitrator has actually adjusted the construction of the list, put aside conditions and restrictions, adjusted the construction of the list based on attrition?

Answer: I cannot.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

Question: My question is, are you aware of any seniority integration arbitration awards in which arbitrators have expressly rejected attrition --

MR. KATZ: I'm going to object.

BY MR. FREUND:
Question: -- as a basis for creating a seniority list?

MR. KATZ: Mr. Bloch, I object.

CHAIRMAN BLOCH: I'm going to allow that as the last answer.

THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm qualified to answer that. I'm not familiar with the legal process of all this.

MR. FREUND: I doubt that's true, but I'll accept that answer, and we'll demonstrate it later.
Thank you.
That's all I have.

 

[JoeMerchant]

nevermind

Well you removed your post before I could respond point by point.....

You and I agree on the "how" we got to this mess....We disagree now because we are on different sides of the fence.

In your original post, before you removed it, you questioned why I continue to bring this stuff up and "poke my fingers in the mainline pilots eyes" or something to that effect.....You also try to tell me that I need to be more political....like Obama was.....

I'm not a politician and I believe in telling it like it is.....I'm like the Ron Paul of the Republican Party....ALPA and the Republican Party are alot a like.....I am members of both....but have no faith in either anymore...They BOTH are full of politicians who are more interested in political expediency than doing what is necessary.....Both have lost their way.....

You and I talked when you left ASA for DAL....You asked me not to "out" you because you were concerned about how that would effect things at Delta....To this day, I honor that.....But that in itself shows what is wrong with this so called "union"....You shouldn't be ashamed of what you did here at ASA with your support of RJDC....The fact that you tried to fix ALPA and now you are afraid of your fellow "brothers" finding out about you.....is very telling of this "union".....

You are right that this is a "political" body....and these are "political" issues.....I'm not a politician...Herndon and the various MECs are full of politicians.....I'm not impressed....

The "career expectations" argument is absurd.....I was simply pointing out the absurdity of it.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Career expectations are subject to "the vagaries" of this industry. Nevertheless, none of the NWA pilots are bringing metroliner jobs to the merger. So what's your point?

I'm an advocate of maintaining what you bring to the merger, or put another way maintain jobs, maintain pay, maintain status, no wind falls at anothers expense and minimize detrimental effects to career expectations. Sound familiar?

"Career expectations" are in the eye of the beholder....extremely subjective....and subject to change.....To base a merger policy around them is simply asking for trouble....

The Metro pilots hired at Southern still have their original DOH....despite the fact that they can now hold 747 captain...."Career expectations" are a funny thing....

We can all argue what is "fair" or "right".....but the fact is we aren't going to be "unified"......

 

[nwaredtail]

Memorable quotes from the hearing:

CROSS-EXAMINATION of NALPA witness LK

Question: Just not going in any particular order, at least not in the order of the slides. Let me just start by asking you, with respect to this so-called attrition argument that you're sponsoring, can you tell us whether there has been any case decided under ALPA merger policy in which an arbitrator has actually adjusted the construction of the list, put aside conditions and restrictions, adjusted the construction of the list based on attrition?

Answer: I cannot.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

Question: My question is, are you aware of any seniority integration arbitration awards in which arbitrators have expressly rejected attrition --

MR. KATZ: I'm going to object.

BY MR. FREUND:
Question: -- as a basis for creating a seniority list?

MR. KATZ: Mr. Bloch, I object.

CHAIRMAN BLOCH: I'm going to allow that as the last answer.

THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm qualified to answer that. I'm not familiar with the legal process of all this.

MR. FREUND: I doubt that's true, but I'll accept that answer, and we'll demonstrate it later.
Thank you.
That's all I have.

seems to me he couldn't answer the question, he didn't say yes or no. Your attorney seems a bit flustered...

 

[General Lee]

seems to me he couldn't answer the question, he didn't say yes or no. Your attorney seems a bit flustered...

Flustered? This A320FO was an expert witness? He brought up a fable about two ex Western pilots who used to hold hands, and they were both furloughed, blah blah blah.... It was ridiculous. What about the third guy who stayed home and became a Mr Mom? He deserves to be a 777 Captain now, right?

And it sure doesn't seem like he was flustered, our attorney. He proved your guy had no clue what he was talking about, liked to tell cute stories, and also loved to give speaches.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

Well you removed your post before I could respond point by point.....

You and I agree on the "how" we got to this mess....We disagree now because we are on different sides of the fence.

In your original post, before you removed it, you questioned why I continue to bring this stuff up and "poke my fingers in the mainline pilots eyes" or something to that effect.....You also try to tell me that I need to be more political....like Obama was.....

I'm not a politician and I believe in telling it like it is.....I'm like the Ron Paul of the Republican Party....ALPA and the Republican Party are alot a like.....I am members of both....but have no faith in either anymore...They BOTH are full of politicians who are more interested in political expediency than doing what is necessary.....Both have lost their way.....

You and I talked when you left ASA for DAL....You asked me not to "out" you because you were concerned about how that would effect things at Delta....To this day, I honor that.....But that in itself shows what is wrong with this so called "union"....You shouldn't be ashamed of what you did here at ASA with your support of RJDC....The fact that you tried to fix ALPA and now you are afraid of your fellow "brothers" finding out about you.....is very telling of this "union".....

You are right that this is a "political" body....and these are "political" issues.....I'm not a politician...Herndon and the various MECs are full of politicians.....I'm not impressed....

The "career expectations" argument is absurd.....I was simply pointing out the absurdity of it.....

Somebody call the exterminator. The roaches are crawling back from behind the walls again. What were we thinking by not listening to the ASA and Comair pilots all of these years?

BTW, you don't have the credibility to "poke your fingers in the eyes" of the mainline pilots.

Your like the Sarah Palin of the reps, not the Ron Paul. Clueless, powerless, and a big mouth.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Puff,

Hey, Sarah's kind of hot. Don't ruin the image.

Joe,

Thanks for not blackmailing me I've been "outed" more times than Lindsey Lohan.

I'll put you back on ignore and you can go back to throwing poo in everyone else's direction. Sorry I replied.

Everyone else - apologize for this crap post.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,

Thanks for not blackmailing me I've been "outed" more times than Lindsay Lohan, although most will attest there was no effort to hide. It has never been about "me." I'm just one member of a huge union that would like to see more unity and effective scope. These are the foundations of our profession and we agree the foundation needs repair. That is what I believe in and I've never run from my beliefs.

My point is you harm your cause by interjecting yourself into a merger debate that does not effect you. Maybe I'm wrong about your cause, maybe your goal is just to torque everyone, in which case you succeed only until they are distracted by the next post.

Ideally, I'd like to see all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots. By aggravating everyone, it is harder to get anyone to want DCI pilots in the club. It isn't a logical fight, it is a political battle and DALPA has just grown from the 900lb Gorilla to King Kong.

Everyone else - sorry - this has nothing to do with the Arbitration Deadline.

1. It has everything to do with ALPA merger policy....."Career expectations" is just asking for trouble.....

2. Ideally you would "like to see all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots".....does that include ASA pilots?....Probably not now that we are owned by Skywest.....Conflict of interest pokes it's ugly head into things again....

3. My point is to illustrate how disfunctional this so called "union" is.....We aren't "unified".....Every mainline seniority list integration proves my point for me......This thread illustrates it also......

 

[~~~^~~~]

Yeah, Skywest's subsidiary, ASA, too. JMHO, all Delta flying. Can't see how we get there from here, but the less outsourcing of jobs, the better.

.... and actually, ALPA's done a pretty darn good job on this merger so far.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yeah, Skywest's subsidiary, ASA, too. JMHO, all Delta flying. Can't see how we get there from here, but the less outsourcing of jobs, the better.

.... and actually, ALPA's done a pretty darn good job on this merger so far.

ALPA can't get subsidiaries on the same list...forgive me if I don't have faith that you will "include" ASA in the new single list......Obama has a better chance of "fixing" the economy......

As far as the merger.....I bet some NWA junior folks get thrown under the bus on this one.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'm thinking junior pilots from both airlines will come out surprisingly well and have some pretty good reasons to back up that conclusion. There will be some growth while the fences are up and retirements after the fences come down. I just hope Delta pulls enough pilots in from outside to alleviate the inevitable right sizing on the domestic narrow-body operations (which by departures and pilots is a DCI part of Delta).

As Super 92 writes "Glass Half Full."

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm thinking junior pilots from both airlines will come out surprisingly well and have some pretty good reasons to back up that conclusion. There will be some growth while the fences are up and retirements after the fences come down. I just hope Delta pulls enough pilots in from outside to alleviate the inevitable right sizing on the domestic narrow-body operations (which by departures and pilots is a DCI part of Delta).

As Super 92 writes "Glass Half Full."

My understanding is some NWA pilots with 5+ years may be junior to DAL pilots with a little over a year.....The longevity is not being honored....IMO we need a policy that rewards longevity in this business more.....

You gave up your longevity to start over again.....Longevity means too much in this business for people to agree to give up longevity to someone who has been doing this for less time.....

Every other profession.... except ours....rewards longevity....We penalize it.....That should change....

 

[~~~^~~~]

My understanding is some NWA pilots with 5+ years may be junior to DAL pilots with a little over a year.....The longevity is not being honored....IMO we need a policy that rewards longevity in this business more.....

You gave up your longevity to start over again.....Longevity means too much in this business for people to agree to give up longevity to someone who has been doing this for less time.....

Every other profession.... except ours....rewards longevity....We penalize it.....That should change....

You are confusing Longevity and Seniority. The furoughed NWA pilots had their lost longevity restored by this deal.

Seniority may, or may not, reflect the status quo of equipment and bidding ... none of us know and if you know, please do tell. But nobody is losing any longevity. If, and that's a big if, NWA pilots ended up "junior" to Delta pilots, they would still earn more than the Delta pilots because of their longevity on the pay scale.

Starting over is the way this business works with alter ego outsourcing. We have to build bridges to reach your goal of preserving longevity.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You are confusing Longevity and Seniority. The furoughed NWA pilots had their lost longevity restored by this deal.

Seniority may, or may not, reflect the status quo of equipment and bidding ... none of us know and if you know, please do tell. But nobody is losing any longevity. If, and that's a big if, NWA pilots ended up "junior" to Delta pilots, they would still earn more than the Delta pilots because of their longevity on the pay scale.

Starting over is the way this business works with alter ego outsourcing. We have to build bridges to reach your goal of preserving longevity.

I believe longevity should be the driving force behind merger policy....at one time it was......

Longevity is more objective....it is the way many other professions work......

Is it not true that 5 year NWA pilots will be junior to 1+ year DAL pilots.....How is that fair?

There will be cutbacks.....The economy is getting ready to really take a dump......We ain't seen nothin yet.....The US automakers on the verge of collapse....that will start a whole new cascade of failure......The bottom needs to be very concerned now......

 

[~~~^~~~]

Is it not true that 5 year NWA pilots will be junior to 1+ year DAL pilots.....

I don't know and I don't even know anybody who knows, if anybody knows. If anybody who's name isn't Richard Bloch says he knows, don't believe them.

 

[General Lee]

I believe longevity should be the driving force behind merger policy....at one time it was......

Longevity is more objective....it is the way many other professions work......

Is it not true that 5 year NWA pilots will be junior to 1+ year DAL pilots.....How is that fair?

There will be cutbacks.....The economy is getting ready to really take a dump......We ain't seen nothin yet.....The US automakers on the verge of collapse....that will start a whole new cascade of failure......The bottom needs to be very concerned now......

17 year USAir FOs were placed next to bottom guys at AWA. It is called relative seniority. There is no National Seniority list, so you can't just fit in DOH. If your company expands and the other does not, should your pilots be penalized? We hired 600+ after our furloughed pilots came back, and NWA hired 176 for attrition. We expanded, they did not. Steenland held onto cash and looked for a merger partner instead of expanding. That is not our fault.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JoeMerchant]

17 year USAir FOs were placed next to bottom guys at AWA. It is called relative seniority. There is no National Seniority list, so you can't just fit in DOH. If your company expands and the other does not, should your pilots be penalized? We hired 600+ after our furloughed pilots came back, and NWA hired 176 for attrition. We expanded, they did not. Steenland held onto cash and looked for a merger partner instead of expanding. That is not our fault.


Bye Bye--General Lee

There's no sense arguing with you......but don't expect the 17 year USAir guy to be "OK" with being placed next to the bottom AWA guy....

That isn't going to build a cohesive group....If I've got 17 years.....I'm not going to accept being put next to someone who has a couple of years....

 

[General Lee]

There's no sense arguing with you......but don't expect the 17 year USAir guy to be "OK" with being placed next to the bottom AWA guy....

That isn't going to build a cohesive group....If I've got 17 years.....I'm not going to accept being put next to someone who has a couple of years....

I don't particularly want to argue with you either, but 17 years at a regional doesn't mean you should fit in the same with a major. As far as USAir East and AWA go, you are right, I bet the USAir East guy wasn't happy. It is all about staying where you "currently" are---if you are in the bottom 5% in one company, then you should be in the bottom 5% of the new one. If you are on smaller equipment and don't have the larger planes at your airline, then your career expectations do not include the larger plane, and you should fit into the list where those planes are. That is what happened in the Nic award, and the rest was relative. We offered about the same, including the smaller planes and planes leaving at the bottom.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't particularly want to argue with you either, but 17 years at a regional doesn't mean you should fit in the same with a major. As far as USAir East and AWA go, you are right, I bet the USAir East guy wasn't happy. It is all about staying where you "currently" are---if you are in the bottom 5% in one company, then you should be in the bottom 5% of the new one. If you are on smaller equipment and don't have the larger planes at your airline, then your career expectations do not include the larger plane, and you should fit into the list where those planes are. That is what happened in the Nic award, and the rest was relative. We offered about the same, including the smaller planes and planes leaving at the bottom.

Bye Bye--General Lee

.....likewise a 2 year mainline pilot shouldn't bump a 17 year regional pilot out of their seat when they get furloughed.....

Longevity IMO trumps any subjective "mine is better than yours" argument.....Experience and longevity should count for more than it does in this business.....We treat experience worse than any other profession.....That is our weakness.....and the reason we will never be unified.....

I may not convince you....but don't ask me to support you and back you when you throw my experience and longevity out the window......Depends on whether you want to build unity or not....

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff,

Hey, Sarah's kind of hot. Don't ruin the image.

Whoda thought there could be any more insult to Sarah Palin?!?

 

[FDJ2]

JoeMerchant said:

"Longevity is more objective....it is the way many other professions work......"

"Longevity IMO trumps any subjective "mine is better than yours" argument....."


Joe, if DAL had merged with ASA and CMR, is it your position that longevity should have been the driving force for determining the seniority list?

 

[FDJ2]

seems to me he couldn't answer the question, he didn't say yes or no. Your attorney seems a bit flustered...

Seems to me he couldn't come up with a single example. He's just a typical NALPA witness, either unprepared and uniformed or intentionally misleading. The truth will come out in the end.

 

[FDJ2]

"Career expectations" are in the eye of the beholder....extremely subjective....and subject to change.....To base a merger policy around them is simply asking for trouble....

That's why ALPA merger policy isn't built around career expectations, it seeks to minimize negative effects to career expectations, but places much more emphasis on maintaining where you are now. That's why ratios by comparable equipment brought to the merger is now the preferred form of integration.

 

[nwaredtail]

That's why ALPA merger policy isn't built around career expectations, it seeks to minimize negative effects to career expectations, but places much more emphasis on maintaining where you are now. That's why ratios by comparable equipment brought to the merger is now the preferred form of integration.

Give some examples, without Nicalau, because everyone knows that due to demographics, DOH was not going to happen at to such dissimilar airlines (age wise)

Just some examples.........