SLI Arbitration/Negotiation Deadline Still 11/20

[ACL65PILOT]

I have been talking about ALK for two years now. Then and Hawaiian would fit nicely in to our family at DAL.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2....did you know that there are NWA pilots who hired on to fly 19 seat Metroliners?.....How does that fit into the "career expectations" argument.....I believe they even got DOH.....

There were Delta pilots who flew DC-3s, what's your point?

 

[JoeMerchant]

There were Delta pilots who flew DC-3s, what's your point?

There are current NWA....now DAL pilots....who hired into the Metroliner....a 19 seat turboprop.

You are an advocate of "career expectations" as a way of merging lists are you not? How do these pilots relate to DAL pilots in terms of "career expectations"?

Funny you should mention the DC3 at Delta.....The DAL MEC had cups at the 2002 BOD with a Delta DC3 circled by the words:

Delta Comair ASA "the Delta Nation"

 

[General Lee]

Yup, and those business plans have changed about six times since then. When was that last AE supposed to be out? What am I hearing now? January? In the meantime, that bad, old NWA PWA keeps awarding new positions, every month, like clockwork.

"No significant changes" and from the CEO of NWA plays very well at the arbitration hearings.

Better yet, it makes fantastic testimony about how you can't make any agreement (especially one like a SLI) based on what management MIGHT do.

Nu

Kinda like all those retirements you guys WERE going to have? Your A320FO on the stand loved giving speaches trying to convince anyone that attrition should be used in this case. Also, I could give you a "trip report" from the guys who flew Bastain back from MSP after your meeting to ATL, and give details on what he may have or may not have stated. If you want it, I can PM you. And does "no significant" changes mean from what Steenland initially stated about the DC9s going to 41 from 63? And our AE would benefit us only, since the training would all be completed prior to the SOC, so it doesn't really matter when it is done. The delay was due to the Boeing Strike, which is now over BTW. But, you knew that.... Looks like we will get those 777s next year, along with the 737-700s left on order. Your computer model said you would have ALL of your 18 787s by July 1st of next year. Will that happen? Make sure you tell Bloch.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

nevermind

 

[FDJ2]

You are an advocate of "career expectations" as a way of merging lists are you not? How do these pilots relate to DAL pilots in terms of "career expectations"?

Career expectations are subject to "the vagaries" of this industry. Nevertheless, none of the NWA pilots are bringing metroliner jobs to the merger. So what's your point?

I'm an advocate of maintaining what you bring to the merger, or put another way maintain jobs, maintain pay, maintain status, no wind falls at anothers expense and minimize detrimental effects to career expectations. Sound familiar?

 

[FDJ2]

Kinda like all those retirements you guys WERE going to have? Your A320FO on the stand loved giving speaches trying to convince anyone that attrition should be used in this case.

Memorable quotes from the hearing:

CROSS-EXAMINATION of NALPA witness LK

Question: Just not going in any particular order, at least not in the order of the slides. Let me just start by asking you, with respect to this so-called attrition argument that you're sponsoring, can you tell us whether there has been any case decided under ALPA merger policy in which an arbitrator has actually adjusted the construction of the list, put aside conditions and restrictions, adjusted the construction of the list based on attrition?

Answer: I cannot.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

Question: My question is, are you aware of any seniority integration arbitration awards in which arbitrators have expressly rejected attrition --

MR. KATZ: I'm going to object.

BY MR. FREUND:
Question: -- as a basis for creating a seniority list?

MR. KATZ: Mr. Bloch, I object.

CHAIRMAN BLOCH: I'm going to allow that as the last answer.

THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm qualified to answer that. I'm not familiar with the legal process of all this.

MR. FREUND: I doubt that's true, but I'll accept that answer, and we'll demonstrate it later.
Thank you.
That's all I have.

 

[JoeMerchant]

nevermind

Well you removed your post before I could respond point by point.....

You and I agree on the "how" we got to this mess....We disagree now because we are on different sides of the fence.

In your original post, before you removed it, you questioned why I continue to bring this stuff up and "poke my fingers in the mainline pilots eyes" or something to that effect.....You also try to tell me that I need to be more political....like Obama was.....

I'm not a politician and I believe in telling it like it is.....I'm like the Ron Paul of the Republican Party....ALPA and the Republican Party are alot a like.....I am members of both....but have no faith in either anymore...They BOTH are full of politicians who are more interested in political expediency than doing what is necessary.....Both have lost their way.....

You and I talked when you left ASA for DAL....You asked me not to "out" you because you were concerned about how that would effect things at Delta....To this day, I honor that.....But that in itself shows what is wrong with this so called "union"....You shouldn't be ashamed of what you did here at ASA with your support of RJDC....The fact that you tried to fix ALPA and now you are afraid of your fellow "brothers" finding out about you.....is very telling of this "union".....

You are right that this is a "political" body....and these are "political" issues.....I'm not a politician...Herndon and the various MECs are full of politicians.....I'm not impressed....

The "career expectations" argument is absurd.....I was simply pointing out the absurdity of it.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Career expectations are subject to "the vagaries" of this industry. Nevertheless, none of the NWA pilots are bringing metroliner jobs to the merger. So what's your point?

I'm an advocate of maintaining what you bring to the merger, or put another way maintain jobs, maintain pay, maintain status, no wind falls at anothers expense and minimize detrimental effects to career expectations. Sound familiar?

"Career expectations" are in the eye of the beholder....extremely subjective....and subject to change.....To base a merger policy around them is simply asking for trouble....

The Metro pilots hired at Southern still have their original DOH....despite the fact that they can now hold 747 captain...."Career expectations" are a funny thing....

We can all argue what is "fair" or "right".....but the fact is we aren't going to be "unified"......

 

[nwaredtail]

Memorable quotes from the hearing:

CROSS-EXAMINATION of NALPA witness LK

Question: Just not going in any particular order, at least not in the order of the slides. Let me just start by asking you, with respect to this so-called attrition argument that you're sponsoring, can you tell us whether there has been any case decided under ALPA merger policy in which an arbitrator has actually adjusted the construction of the list, put aside conditions and restrictions, adjusted the construction of the list based on attrition?

Answer: I cannot.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

Question: My question is, are you aware of any seniority integration arbitration awards in which arbitrators have expressly rejected attrition --

MR. KATZ: I'm going to object.

BY MR. FREUND:
Question: -- as a basis for creating a seniority list?

MR. KATZ: Mr. Bloch, I object.

CHAIRMAN BLOCH: I'm going to allow that as the last answer.

THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm qualified to answer that. I'm not familiar with the legal process of all this.

MR. FREUND: I doubt that's true, but I'll accept that answer, and we'll demonstrate it later.
Thank you.
That's all I have.

seems to me he couldn't answer the question, he didn't say yes or no. Your attorney seems a bit flustered...

 

[General Lee]

seems to me he couldn't answer the question, he didn't say yes or no. Your attorney seems a bit flustered...

Flustered? This A320FO was an expert witness? He brought up a fable about two ex Western pilots who used to hold hands, and they were both furloughed, blah blah blah.... It was ridiculous. What about the third guy who stayed home and became a Mr Mom? He deserves to be a 777 Captain now, right?

And it sure doesn't seem like he was flustered, our attorney. He proved your guy had no clue what he was talking about, liked to tell cute stories, and also loved to give speaches.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

Well you removed your post before I could respond point by point.....

You and I agree on the "how" we got to this mess....We disagree now because we are on different sides of the fence.

In your original post, before you removed it, you questioned why I continue to bring this stuff up and "poke my fingers in the mainline pilots eyes" or something to that effect.....You also try to tell me that I need to be more political....like Obama was.....

I'm not a politician and I believe in telling it like it is.....I'm like the Ron Paul of the Republican Party....ALPA and the Republican Party are alot a like.....I am members of both....but have no faith in either anymore...They BOTH are full of politicians who are more interested in political expediency than doing what is necessary.....Both have lost their way.....

You and I talked when you left ASA for DAL....You asked me not to "out" you because you were concerned about how that would effect things at Delta....To this day, I honor that.....But that in itself shows what is wrong with this so called "union"....You shouldn't be ashamed of what you did here at ASA with your support of RJDC....The fact that you tried to fix ALPA and now you are afraid of your fellow "brothers" finding out about you.....is very telling of this "union".....

You are right that this is a "political" body....and these are "political" issues.....I'm not a politician...Herndon and the various MECs are full of politicians.....I'm not impressed....

The "career expectations" argument is absurd.....I was simply pointing out the absurdity of it.....

Somebody call the exterminator. The roaches are crawling back from behind the walls again. What were we thinking by not listening to the ASA and Comair pilots all of these years?

BTW, you don't have the credibility to "poke your fingers in the eyes" of the mainline pilots.

Your like the Sarah Palin of the reps, not the Ron Paul. Clueless, powerless, and a big mouth.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Puff,

Hey, Sarah's kind of hot. Don't ruin the image.

Joe,

Thanks for not blackmailing me I've been "outed" more times than Lindsey Lohan.

I'll put you back on ignore and you can go back to throwing poo in everyone else's direction. Sorry I replied.

Everyone else - apologize for this crap post.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,

Thanks for not blackmailing me I've been "outed" more times than Lindsay Lohan, although most will attest there was no effort to hide. It has never been about "me." I'm just one member of a huge union that would like to see more unity and effective scope. These are the foundations of our profession and we agree the foundation needs repair. That is what I believe in and I've never run from my beliefs.

My point is you harm your cause by interjecting yourself into a merger debate that does not effect you. Maybe I'm wrong about your cause, maybe your goal is just to torque everyone, in which case you succeed only until they are distracted by the next post.

Ideally, I'd like to see all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots. By aggravating everyone, it is harder to get anyone to want DCI pilots in the club. It isn't a logical fight, it is a political battle and DALPA has just grown from the 900lb Gorilla to King Kong.

Everyone else - sorry - this has nothing to do with the Arbitration Deadline.

1. It has everything to do with ALPA merger policy....."Career expectations" is just asking for trouble.....

2. Ideally you would "like to see all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots".....does that include ASA pilots?....Probably not now that we are owned by Skywest.....Conflict of interest pokes it's ugly head into things again....

3. My point is to illustrate how disfunctional this so called "union" is.....We aren't "unified".....Every mainline seniority list integration proves my point for me......This thread illustrates it also......

 

[~~~^~~~]

Yeah, Skywest's subsidiary, ASA, too. JMHO, all Delta flying. Can't see how we get there from here, but the less outsourcing of jobs, the better.

.... and actually, ALPA's done a pretty darn good job on this merger so far.