Skywest, Sapa and pressuring pilots to fly

[cale42]

Max Q,

Boiler beat me to the exact quote.. but he is dead on.. it's the same way you aren't supposed to fly with a head cold.. not a condition specifically cited by part 67.. but you are still expected to call in sick and exercise your best judgement.

I don't have the references in front of me.. but there are studies that show the level of impairment of being fatigued, in relation to the level of impairment of certain antihistamines and such, and the articles conclude that fatigue is a serious medical condition.

If you deem yourself unfit to fly then you deem yourself unfit to exercise the privileges of your medical. That is any airmens right under Part 61.53

 

[Max Q]

Not saying you are incorrect although I had no idea pilot fatigue was considered a “medical condition”.

I interpret 61.53 as a means of 1) preventing pilots from withholding medical deficiencies from an AME and 2) preventing the pilot from taking medication that would disqualify an airman for a medical certificate.

Hypothetically (because this wouldn't happen where I work), If I call scheduling to tell them I'm unfit to fly due to fatigue, I want to know exactly what section of the regs to reference if they try to jerk me around. I can agree with BoilerUp with 67.113 since it includes "...functional defect... makes the person unable to safely perform the duties..." as well as 91.13 with reckless operation.

Something along the lines of, “I am unable to meet the requirements of FAR XXX.xx (x) x….”

Thanks for the input guys.

-Brett

 

[OCP]

Not saying you are incorrect although I had no idea pilot fatigue was considered a “medical condition”.

I interpret 61.53 as a means of 1) preventing pilots from withholding medical deficiencies from an AME and 2) preventing the pilot from taking medication that would disqualify an airman for a medical certificate.

Hypothetically (because this wouldn't happen where I work), If I call scheduling to tell them I'm unfit to fly due to fatigue, I want to know exactly what section of the regs to reference if they try to jerk me around. I can agree with BoilerUp with 67.113 since it includes "...functional defect... makes the person unable to safely perform the duties..." as well as 91.13 with reckless operation.

Something along the lines of, “I am unable to meet the requirements of FAR XXX.xx (x) x….”

Thanks for the input guys.

-Brett

An interesting post...
At ASA and thanks to ALPA if we mention fatigue, then thats it the crew/pilot is put to rest. The flight is considered unsafe with that crew member and someone else needs to do the flight. We do not get paid for it or anything like that, but 50+ people and crew hopefully have a nice safe flight, with a well rested crew.
Do we have to point our FARs? Nope.

 

[Soverytired]

With ALPA, you wouldn't have to deal with a wrongful termination attorney, because a guy like myself or John Pennekamp would have stormed into the CP's office and taken care of it on the spot. The idea that anyone is even tasked with explaining themselves for a fatigue call is asinine. And no, counting on the FAA to defend you is not a smart move. Depending on their own political connections with an airline or a specific CP, you could find out that the POI isn't really interested in defending you.

Depending your own political connections with an airline or specific MEC/LEC rep, you could find out that your ALPA attorney isn't interested in defending you either. I speak from personal experience.

ALPA attorneys are a joke. They're like public defenders . . you might get a good one, but chances are, you'll get one that couldn't cut the mustard in private practice. They take the ALPA job because while they might suck, they're connected. And they're overwhelmed with minutia, so they prioritize based on your "political connections" in the union.

A well researched, well-recommended "private gun" lawyer will do a much better job. Yeah, it costs, but do you really want to entrust your livelihood and professional reputation to the ???ALPA attorney. No thanks.

This is the same ALPA that has ineffectually lobbied Congress for decades without any meaningful results. When you're paying for a service, results count. (except when dealing with holy "ALPA", of course) And fatigue is such an incredibly important issue, this should be the one, and the only thing ALPA deals with, before they do ANYTHING else.

(But I sincerely appreciate your spirt and willingness to go to bat for the pilot group. If there's one thing about ALPA I appreciate, it's their volunteers who actually WORK)

================================

 

[Soverytired]

Oh, there is no way, and I mean NO WAY any chief pilot at a large airline at SKYWEST is going to tell a pilot on a recorded line to fly after the "f" word has been used. Record your own phone calls if you're paranoid.

Mesa had a section in their FAA-signed off manuals that specifically PROHIBITED pilots from flying while fatigued. If Mesa had it, it's a fair bet that every other 121 carrier out their does as well. Pick up your g-damned manual and read it to any chief pilot "pressuring" you to fly, because as far at the FAA is concerned, your company manual is just as binding as a FAR.

If anyone EVER tells you to do something that contradicts a manual in your possession, tell them to put it in writing first. I did this twice at Mesa. Both times, after a 10 minute hold, I was told "nevermind" and went home. In other words, grow a pair.

 

[PCL_128]

Depending your own political connections with an airline or specific MEC/LEC rep, you could find out that your ALPA attorney isn't interested in defending you either. I speak from personal experience.

ALPA attorneys are a joke. They're like public defenders . . you might get a good one, but chances are, you'll get one that couldn't cut the mustard in private practice. They take the ALPA job because while they might suck, they're connected. And they're overwhelmed with minutia, so they prioritize based on your "political connections" in the union.

Sorry, but that's just not the case. Rez's earlier post about ALPA's attorneys is spot-on. These guys are die-hard trade unionists that work their butts off for ALPA members. All of them have extensive experience that they could use to net a massive pay increase at a prestigious firm, but they choose to keep fighting the good fight. You simply can't find an attorney that knows the RLA and general labor law as it applies to pilots as well as these guys do. In all matters related to my profession, I'd rather have an ALPA attorney defending me rather than even the very best private practice labor attorney.

 

[doh]

And after you fly fatigued and bust an altitude or wreck an aircraft the company will run away like a ramper pushing a jet back into a tug. They will state they don't pressure pilots to fly fatigue with a smile on their face.

The Feds will hang you for careless and reckless operation (91.13) of an aircraft and you'll never get a good flying job again. The company will fire you and say "we just got rid of our problem, we don't have a fatigue problem here at SKWY"

That is the best reason to vote ALPA! You are absolutely correct.

 

[Flyin2low]

You were scheduled for less than 14 hours. No wrong there. Issues beyond the company's control caused you to believe that you were going to be fatigued in the future. This bs about exceeding 14 hours is bs too. Many crews are normally scheduled for 14 hour shifts. 16 hours is the absolute limit per FAA. You have no ground to stand on. Either you are too fatigued to continue right now or you're not. I'm not in management btw.

 

[Soverytired]

Sorry, but that's just not the case. Rez's earlier post about ALPA's attorneys is spot-on. These guys are die-hard trade unionists that work their butts off for ALPA members. All of them have extensive experience that they could use to net a massive pay increase at a prestigious firm, but they choose to keep fighting the good fight. You simply can't find an attorney that knows the RLA and general labor law as it applies to pilots as well as these guys do. In all matters related to my profession, I'd rather have an ALPA attorney defending me rather than even the very best private practice labor attorney.

Sorry, but my "near-[career] death" moment at Mesa demonstrated otherwise. I didn't get an ALPA rep for the chief pilot carpet dance, I didn't get a return call from the numerous voice mails to the ALPA attorney. I was told by my local LEC rep that the ALPA attorney was "too busy dealing with REAL problems" and that I should "try again if I get an actual violation."

You experience may vary, of course. When a certain MEC officer purportedly stalled an aircraft in calm air at altitude, I wonder if he got the same treatment from ALPA? Or did he get their full attention and TLC?

ALPA's crowning "glory" is that everyone gets treated equally, no matter how idiotic or incompetent. Or so they say. Frankly, I think it's as political as any other organization, and a hell of a lot less effective than most paid-for "talent".

 

[skypine69]

I have been told to fly when I told them I was fatigued. Both times by Chief pilots. first time I did because i was a new capt, second time i told them to pound sand. its all about the schedule, if they can let you call in fatigued and still get the schedule done, its ok, if they cant cover you, its not ok. and i have been told that in not so many words.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sorry, but my "near-[career] death" moment at Mesa demonstrated otherwise. I didn't get an ALPA rep for the chief pilot carpet dance, I didn't get a return call from the numerous voice mails to the ALPA attorney. I was told by my local LEC rep that the ALPA attorney was "too busy dealing with REAL problems" and that I should "try again if I get an actual violation."

You experience may vary, of course. When a certain MEC officer purportedly stalled an aircraft in calm air at altitude, I wonder if he got the same treatment from ALPA? Or did he get their full attention and TLC?

ALPA's crowning "glory" is that everyone gets treated equally, no matter how idiotic or incompetent. Or so they say. Frankly, I think it's as political as any other organization, and a hell of a lot less effective than most paid-for "talent".

Why did Mesa CP want you to do a carpet dance? Did you violate SOP? FAR?

Also, could it be the volunteer structure at Mesa is weak?

 

[Soverytired]

Why did Mesa CP want you to do a carpet dance? Did you violate SOP? FAR?

Also, could it be the volunteer structure at Mesa is weak?

Numerous pilots were "interpreting" a clause in the manual to get around an airport-specific difficulty. I resisted doing said "clause", and sought clarification from the CP, which I didn't get. After a few weeks, I succumbed to doing what everyone else was doing, and lo and behold, a fed in the terminal went BALLISTIC.

The "weak volunteer" thing only goes so far, by the way. If everything is depending on the local volunteers, why are we paying into a national organization? Isn't the whole point of a national organization to provide expertise, know-how and backing?

If it all comes down to "the volunteers", better to go with a 100% in-house union. There's no doubting motives, or who's responsible for success or failure.

 

[difete]

I already have done my part in refusing early shows after the schedule was being changed due to weather. Always drop the "It is Unsafe"

They will back away after that. No one wants that liability.

I hope I pass my next PC ride. I'll put in my vote to ALPA as soon as I get that ballot in the mail.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Am I missing something? Nothing wrong with flying over 14 hours. Perfectly legal, and is expected, but you can not be SCHEDULED more than 14 hours. You can fly up to 16 hours if you are delayed.

BUT, if you are fatigued, then you are fatigued. Just be prepared to explain why you did it if you make a habit of it!

What is this thread about? Are Skywest pilots contractually limited to less than a 14 hour duty day? Or am I missing something?

 

[PCL_128]

BUT, if you are fatigued, then you are fatigued. Just be prepared to explain why you did it if you make a habit of it!

Explain? There should be no explanation. The word "fatigued" is all that they need to know. Any further explanation is extraneous and intrusive. I called out fatigued many times during my time at Pinnacle, and I always refused to provide them with any explanation. "I was fatigued." That says it all, and that's all that they're going to get.

 

[difete]

Explain? There should be no explanation. The word "fatigued" is all that they need to know. Any further explanation is extraneous and intrusive. I called out fatigued many times during my time at Pinnacle, and I always refused to provide them with any explanation. "I was fatigued." That says it all, and that's all that they're going to get.

I am with you, I told them once I was too tired, and it will be "unsafe", and they let it go. Union or no union, fatigue is the same, no one wants that liability out there, nor you, nor the company.

If you said im fatigued, or unsafe, and they still pressure you and you said ok, you just opened yourself to share that liablility.

Those calls from crew scheduling are recorded, and even if Joe Blow ran a tug into your plane at the ramp (nothing to do with your fatigue offcourse) you will be held accountable for saying ok earlier.

They will ask you why you said ok after admiting you were fatigued?

Then they could tie in that you could have prevented the tug from hitting the plane, if you were not so "fatigued"?

Always CYA.

 

[Mookie]

Holy crap, Difete, you are actually starting to sound like a real captain! good to see....

Mookie

 

[John Pennekamp]

Sorry, but that's just not the case. Rez's earlier post about ALPA's attorneys is spot-on. These guys are die-hard trade unionists that work their butts off for ALPA members. All of them have extensive experience that they could use to net a massive pay increase at a prestigious firm, but they choose to keep fighting the good fight. You simply can't find an attorney that knows the RLA and general labor law as it applies to pilots as well as these guys do. In all matters related to my profession, I'd rather have an ALPA attorney defending me rather than even the very best private practice labor attorney.

That's also my experience. The worst I can say is that some are very green and need a little help from a more experienced attorney their first few years, or on a big case. Otherwise all of the ALPA CAs I've met have been great lawyers and hard core advocates.

 

[regionalcap]

She then said they would not look at it negatively and that this was a fatigue situation and we were all released from duty. I said thankyou and hung up. Two minutes later while explaining the situation to my crew the phone rang. I answered, and it was Katy again. She said she had discussed the matter with someone else and that we now would need to fly the trip.

No one has brought up this point. The scheduler released the pilot from duty and then later reassigned the pilot back to the trip.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Numerous pilots were "interpreting" a clause in the manual to get around an airport-specific difficulty. I resisted doing said "clause", and sought clarification from the CP, which I didn't get. After a few weeks, I succumbed to doing what everyone else was doing, and lo and behold, a fed in the terminal went BALLISTIC.

The "weak volunteer" thing only goes so far, by the way. If everything is depending on the local volunteers, why are we paying into a national organization? Isn't the whole point of a national organization to provide expertise, know-how and backing?

If it all comes down to "the volunteers", better to go with a 100% in-house union. There's no doubting motives, or who's responsible for success or failure.

If you want on site staff experts then how much in dues are you willing to pay? 5%? 10%

 

[say again]

No one has brought up this point. The scheduler released the pilot from duty and then later reassigned the pilot back to the trip.

I mentioned that on page 1. This is the 2nd reason not to do the trip, the 1st one being the fatigue issue.

 

[Soverytired]

If you want on site staff experts then how much in dues are you willing to pay? 5%? 10%

I would happily pay 10% if the union was effective and got a decent contract. If you get paid more with a good contract and work rules, it's worth it, right?

ALPA at Mesa negotiated a CONCESSIONARY contract in the middle of record profits and massive expansion. The national president of ALPA (DW) signed off on it . . . not a mere fomality as the pilots of CCAir could attest to if they still existed (DW would not sign their contract and into the airline dustbin of airline "also rans" went CCAir).

And yes, there were numerous reasons/excuses, but the bottom line is they did a very, very poor job. The leadership didn't even push for a strike . . . and they were given a tailor-made situation to push the pilot group into it.

ALPA has had 2 chances to get a decent contract at Mesa. They are now working on their 3rd, and I haven't heard JACK SQUAT going on yet, so I fully expect more of the same. By any measure, ALPA has failed the Mesa pilot group for more than a decade.

 

[labbats]

If you ask me, the original schedule of 7 legs and 13:46 duty sounded pretty tiring. That's a piss poor schedule right there and the FAA should put that front and center if they really cared about safety.

 

[DashTrash400]

the FAA should put that front and center if they really cared about safety.

And if my aunt had a d!ck she'd be my uncle.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

I would happily pay 10% if the union was effective and got a decent contract. If you get paid more with a good contract and work rules, it's worth it, right?

ALPA at Mesa negotiated a CONCESSIONARY contract in the middle of record profits and massive expansion. The national president of ALPA (DW) signed off on it . . . not a mere fomality as the pilots of CCAir could attest to if they still existed (DW would not sign their contract and into the airline dustbin of airline "also rans" went CCAir).

And yes, there were numerous reasons/excuses, but the bottom line is they did a very, very poor job. The leadership didn't even push for a strike . . . and they were given a tailor-made situation to push the pilot group into it.

ALPA has had 2 chances to get a decent contract at Mesa. They are now working on their 3rd, and I haven't heard JACK SQUAT going on yet, so I fully expect more of the same. By any measure, ALPA has failed the Mesa pilot group for more than a decade.

I think the bottom line is not that ALPA is bad, but that working for a POS like JO is not a good idea...

 

[difete]

Holy crap, Difete, you are a real captain! I like your biceps, I definetely would like to date you. You are so hot as a stud muffin!!!....

Mookie

No thanks Mookey. Im straight. LOL

 

[difete]

In going back to the main subject here, there is a difference between "scheduled" and "actual" in duty time.

They cannot "schedule" you over 14 hours without your permission. But then you can go upto 16 hours max with no "ifs" or "buts" after that.

(Example: My chief called me to verify if I was ok with a 15 hour duty day because the main carrier made last minute changes to the schedule, the pay was good, so I said sure)

Now if you "actually" went over 14 hours because of delays (weather, flow, ground stops...), that is not scheduled, you can keep on going up to 16 hours, and then thats it. No more flying.

But fatigue is a whole different animal. When you or your crew are fatigued, thats it, you must set your foot down and not fly.

Unfortunately, you must justify why you or your crew was fatigued during a "legally" scheduled day. And without proper representation, or defense, it would be your word vs theirs.

I have had a good expirience so far with that, but there is nothing to protect your job here if someone decides to take your "fatigue" as a cause for termination.

Hope this helps, anyway,
Fly safe and good luck.

 

[yellowfever]

I would happily pay 10% if the union was effective and got a decent contract. If you get paid more with a good contract and work rules, it's worth it, right?

ALPA at Mesa negotiated a CONCESSIONARY contract in the middle of record profits and massive expansion. The national president of ALPA (DW) signed off on it . . . not a mere fomality as the pilots of CCAir could attest to if they still existed (DW would not sign their contract and into the airline dustbin of airline "also rans" went CCAir).

And yes, there were numerous reasons/excuses, but the bottom line is they did a very, very poor job. The leadership didn't even push for a strike . . . and they were given a tailor-made situation to push the pilot group into it.

ALPA has had 2 chances to get a decent contract at Mesa. They are now working on their 3rd, and I haven't heard JACK SQUAT going on yet, so I fully expect more of the same. By any measure, ALPA has failed the Mesa pilot group for more than a decade.

You guys voted for the MEC right? Who did you vote for???

 

[Soverytired]

You guys voted for the MEC right? Who did you vote for???

No, the membership does NOT vote for the MEC (Master executive council). They are elected by the various LEC's (local executive councils).

The LEC's lend themselves to cronyism by a percentage based voting system. The bigger the base, the "more" a LEC members vote counts. And here's the kicker . . .they can "split" their vote, i.e. 60% of their vote for one guy, 30% for another, 10% for one more. This way they can look "impartial" and still let their bud of 15 years stay in the MEC chair.

It took about 2 years and the unswerving efforts of some extremely dedicated pilots to recall, or threaten to recall, their LEC reps if they didn't displace the MEC chair to get rid of the MEC chair. This was far, far, far too late to make any difference, of course.

 

[Soverytired]

I think the bottom line is not that ALPA is bad, but that working for a POS like JO is not a good idea...

ALPA IS bad at Mesa, so yes, you shouldn't work at Mesa and expect them to do anything other than take your money and tell you they can't do anything about your crummy airline.

Your airline ALPA experience may differ. You won't actually know until you've signed your paycheck away and see how it goes for a few years. And god help you if you spearhead a union decertification drive.

So tread carefully.