Skywest, Sapa and pressuring pilots to fly

[cale42]

I'm talking 61.53.. " Knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would
make the person unable to meet the requirements for the medical
certificate necessary for the pilot operation"

In this day and age of medical research.. fatigue is certainly considered a medical condition. It's just like the FAA can go after you and violate you if you do something stupid and then claim you were sick. If you fly in a condition that you judge yourself unsafe to fly in, be it illness or fatigue you violate the FAR's. Sure 99.99% of the time you get away with it and nothing happens.. but if something does happen you better beleive the FAA will slap your ass with flying unfit.

cale

 

[Mookie]

the insidious nature of fatigue is that you really dont know how out of it you are until you get into trouble. it's like the guy who has four beers and drinks a glass of water and pops a piece of gum and thinks they are cool to drive. YOU ARE IMPAIRED!!! 99.99% you will get away with it...but if you don't...then you'll be lucky if you just bend a piece of metal or bust and altitude and not kill yourself and however many people are behind you.

stop "threatening" to call in fatigued...just do it...

Mookie

 

[Max Q]

Cale42: Fatigue is not a "medical condition" as far as FAR 67 is concerned, therefore 61.53 (a) 1. is irrelevant. I am not trying to be devil's advocate here. I am genuinely interested in what FAR you are referring to that is protecting you from flying unfit and unable to perform your duties.

-Brett

 

[Skywest Pylot]

......................

 

[Soverytired]

Dare I say it- ALPA would have you covered.

So would the FAA and any decent aviation / wrongful termination attorney.

Hell, just ask the pressuring chief pilot to get the POI in on the discussion and see if he changes his tune.


But that wouldn't cost your respective pilot group a collective millions of dollars per year, now would it?

 

[DashTrash400]

So would the FAA and any decent aviation / wrongful termination attorney.

Hell, just ask the pressuring chief pilot to get the POI in on the discussion and see if he changes his tune.


But that wouldn't cost your respective pilot group a collective millions of dollars per year, now would it?

Lord knows the FAA has the pilot's interests in mind. They really stuck one to management with 121.471, didn't they!?

 

[BoilerUP]

Cale42: Fatigue is not a "medical condition" as far as FAR 67 is concerned, therefore 61.53 (a) 1. is irrelevant. I am not trying to be devil's advocate here. I am genuinely interested in what FAR you are referring to that is protecting you from flying unfit and unable to perform your duties.

-Brett

Fatigue might not necessarily be defined by FAR 67, but I strongly disagree that it makes 61.53(a) irrelevant.

Sec. 67.113 General medical condition.

The general medical standards for a first-class airman medical
certificate are:
(b) No other organic, functional, or structural disease, defect, or
limitation that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on the case history and
appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the condition
involved, finds--
(1) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise
the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held

I'm no doctor...but I'd say that fatigue most certainly is a functional defect or limitation that would make one unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate held.

As such, flying while fatigued puts you in direct violation 61.53, not to mention anything about 91.13. Or the FOM at most airlines which states that "Safety is the #1 priority" or a similar statement.

 

[PCL_128]

So would the FAA and any decent aviation / wrongful termination attorney.

With ALPA, you wouldn't have to deal with a wrongful termination attorney, because a guy like myself or John Pennekamp would have stormed into the CP's office and taken care of it on the spot. The idea that anyone is even tasked with explaining themselves for a fatigue call is asinine. And no, counting on the FAA to defend you is not a smart move. Depending on their own political connections with an airline or a specific CP, you could find out that the POI isn't really interested in defending you.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Aviation or wrongful termination attorney?

Yeah right.... We had a pilot get fired (arrogant pilot he was, thought he was infailable)... he went out shopping for an outside lawyer... Our CA (contract administrator...ie. an ALPA attorney) called him up and the entertainment and assurance that ALPA CA's are quality products was affirmed!

As soon as the high dollar outside lawyer realized he was amatuer hour, you could tell how he switched from badass showman "shark" lawyer to "I better shut up and learn what I can about the RLA and the way things are done in Title 49 of the CFR."

Our ALPA lawyer was nothing like a showman. He was hard core unionist that believes in labor. Oh these ALPA CAs can easily go out in the "real" market and make bank, but they are unionist. And they are the Best. I'm glad we have them...

 

[Skywest Pylot]

This is not the first time I have heard of our pilots getting pressured to fly while fatigued. Caution: Do not get on the wrong persons bad side. You are an AT WILL employee. Nobody's got your back!

 

[cale42]

Max Q,

Boiler beat me to the exact quote.. but he is dead on.. it's the same way you aren't supposed to fly with a head cold.. not a condition specifically cited by part 67.. but you are still expected to call in sick and exercise your best judgement.

I don't have the references in front of me.. but there are studies that show the level of impairment of being fatigued, in relation to the level of impairment of certain antihistamines and such, and the articles conclude that fatigue is a serious medical condition.

If you deem yourself unfit to fly then you deem yourself unfit to exercise the privileges of your medical. That is any airmens right under Part 61.53

 

[Max Q]

Not saying you are incorrect although I had no idea pilot fatigue was considered a “medical condition”.

I interpret 61.53 as a means of 1) preventing pilots from withholding medical deficiencies from an AME and 2) preventing the pilot from taking medication that would disqualify an airman for a medical certificate.

Hypothetically (because this wouldn't happen where I work), If I call scheduling to tell them I'm unfit to fly due to fatigue, I want to know exactly what section of the regs to reference if they try to jerk me around. I can agree with BoilerUp with 67.113 since it includes "...functional defect... makes the person unable to safely perform the duties..." as well as 91.13 with reckless operation.

Something along the lines of, “I am unable to meet the requirements of FAR XXX.xx (x) x….”

Thanks for the input guys.

-Brett

 

[OCP]

Not saying you are incorrect although I had no idea pilot fatigue was considered a “medical condition”.

I interpret 61.53 as a means of 1) preventing pilots from withholding medical deficiencies from an AME and 2) preventing the pilot from taking medication that would disqualify an airman for a medical certificate.

Hypothetically (because this wouldn't happen where I work), If I call scheduling to tell them I'm unfit to fly due to fatigue, I want to know exactly what section of the regs to reference if they try to jerk me around. I can agree with BoilerUp with 67.113 since it includes "...functional defect... makes the person unable to safely perform the duties..." as well as 91.13 with reckless operation.

Something along the lines of, “I am unable to meet the requirements of FAR XXX.xx (x) x….”

Thanks for the input guys.

-Brett

An interesting post...
At ASA and thanks to ALPA if we mention fatigue, then thats it the crew/pilot is put to rest. The flight is considered unsafe with that crew member and someone else needs to do the flight. We do not get paid for it or anything like that, but 50+ people and crew hopefully have a nice safe flight, with a well rested crew.
Do we have to point our FARs? Nope.

 

[Soverytired]

With ALPA, you wouldn't have to deal with a wrongful termination attorney, because a guy like myself or John Pennekamp would have stormed into the CP's office and taken care of it on the spot. The idea that anyone is even tasked with explaining themselves for a fatigue call is asinine. And no, counting on the FAA to defend you is not a smart move. Depending on their own political connections with an airline or a specific CP, you could find out that the POI isn't really interested in defending you.

Depending your own political connections with an airline or specific MEC/LEC rep, you could find out that your ALPA attorney isn't interested in defending you either. I speak from personal experience.

ALPA attorneys are a joke. They're like public defenders . . you might get a good one, but chances are, you'll get one that couldn't cut the mustard in private practice. They take the ALPA job because while they might suck, they're connected. And they're overwhelmed with minutia, so they prioritize based on your "political connections" in the union.

A well researched, well-recommended "private gun" lawyer will do a much better job. Yeah, it costs, but do you really want to entrust your livelihood and professional reputation to the ???ALPA attorney. No thanks.

This is the same ALPA that has ineffectually lobbied Congress for decades without any meaningful results. When you're paying for a service, results count. (except when dealing with holy "ALPA", of course) And fatigue is such an incredibly important issue, this should be the one, and the only thing ALPA deals with, before they do ANYTHING else.

(But I sincerely appreciate your spirt and willingness to go to bat for the pilot group. If there's one thing about ALPA I appreciate, it's their volunteers who actually WORK)

================================

 

[Soverytired]

Oh, there is no way, and I mean NO WAY any chief pilot at a large airline at SKYWEST is going to tell a pilot on a recorded line to fly after the "f" word has been used. Record your own phone calls if you're paranoid.

Mesa had a section in their FAA-signed off manuals that specifically PROHIBITED pilots from flying while fatigued. If Mesa had it, it's a fair bet that every other 121 carrier out their does as well. Pick up your g-damned manual and read it to any chief pilot "pressuring" you to fly, because as far at the FAA is concerned, your company manual is just as binding as a FAR.

If anyone EVER tells you to do something that contradicts a manual in your possession, tell them to put it in writing first. I did this twice at Mesa. Both times, after a 10 minute hold, I was told "nevermind" and went home. In other words, grow a pair.

 

[PCL_128]

Depending your own political connections with an airline or specific MEC/LEC rep, you could find out that your ALPA attorney isn't interested in defending you either. I speak from personal experience.

ALPA attorneys are a joke. They're like public defenders . . you might get a good one, but chances are, you'll get one that couldn't cut the mustard in private practice. They take the ALPA job because while they might suck, they're connected. And they're overwhelmed with minutia, so they prioritize based on your "political connections" in the union.

Sorry, but that's just not the case. Rez's earlier post about ALPA's attorneys is spot-on. These guys are die-hard trade unionists that work their butts off for ALPA members. All of them have extensive experience that they could use to net a massive pay increase at a prestigious firm, but they choose to keep fighting the good fight. You simply can't find an attorney that knows the RLA and general labor law as it applies to pilots as well as these guys do. In all matters related to my profession, I'd rather have an ALPA attorney defending me rather than even the very best private practice labor attorney.

 

[doh]

And after you fly fatigued and bust an altitude or wreck an aircraft the company will run away like a ramper pushing a jet back into a tug. They will state they don't pressure pilots to fly fatigue with a smile on their face.

The Feds will hang you for careless and reckless operation (91.13) of an aircraft and you'll never get a good flying job again. The company will fire you and say "we just got rid of our problem, we don't have a fatigue problem here at SKWY"

That is the best reason to vote ALPA! You are absolutely correct.

 

[Flyin2low]

You were scheduled for less than 14 hours. No wrong there. Issues beyond the company's control caused you to believe that you were going to be fatigued in the future. This bs about exceeding 14 hours is bs too. Many crews are normally scheduled for 14 hour shifts. 16 hours is the absolute limit per FAA. You have no ground to stand on. Either you are too fatigued to continue right now or you're not. I'm not in management btw.

 

[Soverytired]

Sorry, but that's just not the case. Rez's earlier post about ALPA's attorneys is spot-on. These guys are die-hard trade unionists that work their butts off for ALPA members. All of them have extensive experience that they could use to net a massive pay increase at a prestigious firm, but they choose to keep fighting the good fight. You simply can't find an attorney that knows the RLA and general labor law as it applies to pilots as well as these guys do. In all matters related to my profession, I'd rather have an ALPA attorney defending me rather than even the very best private practice labor attorney.

Sorry, but my "near-[career] death" moment at Mesa demonstrated otherwise. I didn't get an ALPA rep for the chief pilot carpet dance, I didn't get a return call from the numerous voice mails to the ALPA attorney. I was told by my local LEC rep that the ALPA attorney was "too busy dealing with REAL problems" and that I should "try again if I get an actual violation."

You experience may vary, of course. When a certain MEC officer purportedly stalled an aircraft in calm air at altitude, I wonder if he got the same treatment from ALPA? Or did he get their full attention and TLC?

ALPA's crowning "glory" is that everyone gets treated equally, no matter how idiotic or incompetent. Or so they say. Frankly, I think it's as political as any other organization, and a hell of a lot less effective than most paid-for "talent".

 

[skypine69]

I have been told to fly when I told them I was fatigued. Both times by Chief pilots. first time I did because i was a new capt, second time i told them to pound sand. its all about the schedule, if they can let you call in fatigued and still get the schedule done, its ok, if they cant cover you, its not ok. and i have been told that in not so many words.