SkyWest Pilots Promoting ALPA

[SkyNation]

Rogue5,

I understand your points. Again I'll say I'm most interested in results. The term 'threat' that you used implies an adversarial relationship between employee groups and management, something I feel is inherent with having ALPA on property. I recognize some regionals have degraded to the point where ALPA is their only recourse.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I'll repeat that the results are what matter to me. If at the end of the day I make as much or more, have a better QOL, the company is thriving (which benefits me in terms of stability, opportunity, more pay via PRs or upgrade, etc.) than my counterparts at other regionals, why would I want to change to their way? In my book we're winning the race, so why would I want to change my gameplan?

Of course it sucks when things change that you don't like, but that is part of being an employee. You only have so much say in how things go. I have neighbors employed in various industries, and none of them 'threaten' a work action when presented with changes necessary to make/keep their companies competitive. why are we so different?

I want to continue to win the race by remaining stable, having growth opportunities, and enjoying the good feeling about things at work that I get from most, certainly not all, of the guys I fly with. Looking at other ALPA regionals, including the one I left to come here, I don't see that happening. Like I've always said on these threads, though, I wish them the best and hope that they like their workplace as much as I like mine. Many don't, and many come here.

I think it's safe to say we'll disagree. I agree to that.

Rogue, have you ever worked for an ALPA carrier? Is it possible that a regional could be conducted in such as way that ALPA, in your view, was not necessary? If so, how would it be? If not, why not? when in my view SkyWest provides the best overall package in the field, I see things being conducted in a way (not perfect, of course) where I don't see the benefit.

good things to all

 

[Gobi Gred]

SkyNation, What happens if there is a management change at SkyWest? There are certain businessmen out there that would given the opportunity, totally screw the pilot group out of everything they have. Did you know that there was an individual in SkyWest management (who is long since gone) that said "no pilot is worth more than $10 an hour"? What if someone like this individual became CEO? "Well we'd just get union" is the typical anti union fence sitter response. By then it is too late! As a pilot group the SkyWest pilots and the seniority list have no legal standing in a court of law. If management wants a 10% pay cut across the board or furlough out of seniority, it's a done deal and can be done overnight. I can't believe that doesn't concern you just a little. I do agree that SkyWest is a great company and the current management team has done a really good job of running the company so far. However, I believe the day is coming that the SkyWest pilot group will pay dearly for not having a legally binding contract and a legally recognized seniority list.

 

[AviatorTx]

Flav-
Usually agree with most of your posts but not on this one.

I have zero trust in ALPA and very little in management.

With worth pulling in over 500K and all the problems at carriers with ALPA, how can you not?

Then vote in the Teamsters, or another union, but for god sakes... Stop lowering the bar by flying 70+ seat planes for 50 seat PAY. You are not only screwing yourselves, you are screwing the rest of us.

You are either part of the problem, or part of the solution.

 

[ArcticFlier]

SkyNation, What happens if there is a management change at SkyWest? There are certain businessmen out there that would given the opportunity, totally screw the pilot group out of everything they have. Did you know that there was an individual in SkyWest management (who is long since gone) that said "no pilot is worth more than $10 an hour"?

Sounds like John Ligtermoet.



AF

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Sounds like John Ligtermoet.



AF

Yup, and when you fly into BFL you can still see the aptly named "Lake Ligtermoet" sewage ponds.

 

[Morning Wood]

Dave,

yes, that is more accurate. having flown with members of the OC, and reading their posts along with other pro-ALPA folks, my impression is what it is. take it for what it's worth, but I tend to fly/talk with more who agree with me than disagree.

s.o.JTB,

I know he isn't on the OC. His attitude, and others, exemplifies to me what I would like to see kept at a minimum. I know that every company has naysayers and complainers. I'm just trying to be realistic. Of course I'd take more pay on the 70, 90, or whatever else is coming. who wouldn't? I don't see any compelling evidence that ALPA would make things any better, but I see lots of evidence in looking at other ALPA regionals that it could certainly be worse.

I came to SkyWest from an ALPA carrier. So did lots of guys. you can assert that we're 'too new here' to realize how bad we have it. I've heard that arugment. What rings more true is when I talk to 22, 20, 18 year guys who recognize that while things are perfect, they are happy to have been here and realize that we still do well in comparison.

am I entitled to that opinion? I respect you're entitled to yours.

have either of you ever worked for an ALPA carrier? why did you leave and come to SkyWest? why are some members of the OC interviewing at JetBlue (not ALPA)?

For the same reason the same person you're talking about bids the 70 by choice after telling everyone why they shouldn't bid it or fly it.

 

[pipers]

BH and the boys are already getting your 2%, and then some, and then some, and then some. Some of you should answer USCtrojan's question.

Hey pipers? did you forget something?????

70 pay?
90 pay?
What ever the next CL-65-superliner pay?

If SAPA had one of the balls that SIA has, then maybe we could do without a union, but we all know the story there.

SkyWest is still number one in my book, but the future scares me!
Union or no union makes no difference at all, the only thing that will make a difference is a unified pilot group that makes good decisions and stands by them. I'm all ears on other ways to do that....

Dude, don't get me wrong. I am non an anti-union SGU kissin' freak, but anyone who thinks that voting ALPA in will solve our 70 and 90 seat pay issues is dreaming......

If there was a decent regional union out there I would be organizing and handing out the bumper stickers, but what has ALPA done for the regionals? Seriously? Mesa? ASA? (I should be pissed at them for flying the 50 at that rate). I wish the in house Union would have made it a few years ago...

 

[SkyNation]

For the same reason the same person you're talking about bids the 70 by choice after telling everyone why they shouldn't bid it or fly it.

Indeed........

 

[Bluto]

If management wants a 10% pay cut across the board or furlough out of seniority, it's a done deal and can be done overnight. I can't believe that doesn't concern you just a little.

I think this bears repeating. Gobi makes an Excellent point. Not to mention this kind of arbitrary policy-change has already happened repeatedly on a smaller scale. Do you anti-ALPA people not remember the recent pay vote? If they are not willing to negotiate further following a decicive no-vote, why do they even allow us to vote? Any pay vote from now on is merely for show. If political elections had this little meaning people would riot in the streets. What do we do? Nothing.

That is the clearest indication to me that our current representative structure is irreparably broken and our current management team doesn't really care about our perception of them. The real shocker to me is that so many pilots are willing to give them a free pass on this and numerous other issues.

People, you are pilots. Recognition of dangerous trends is probably your single most important skill. How can you not recognize the disturbing trends over the past 5 years with respect to pay, QOL, and total compensation? Don't listen to anyone's propaganda, but please do open your eyes and look at what's been happening here.

I honestly don't care where you came from. Unfortunately, I have a feeling most of you spent so little time at your previous, second-tier, ALPA carriers that you have no idea that what has happened to us recently, legally, would never have happened, even at Mesa, without receiving something in return. I won't go into the long list of concessions we've made, but I don't accept that because other airlines have had trouble that we should grin and bear it. Not considering the position we, as a company, are now in. We should expect better of our management team and better of our representative body. How do you propose we get it without a change?

 

[Bluto]

...anyone who thinks that voting ALPA in will solve our 70 and 90 seat pay issues is dreaming......

If there was a decent regional union out there I would be organizing and handing out the bumper stickers, but what has ALPA done for the regionals? Seriously? Mesa? ASA? I wish the in house Union would have made it a few years ago...

If you'd been here then you would probably have seen that it wasn't that great an idea the first time around. It's convenient for you to say you're pro-union, just not that union. If you've been at an ALPA carrier before, you should know that ALPA is the line pilots. All this anti-ALPA rhetoric makes me wonder if you guys are all former RJDC.

If you think keeping our current representative structure will solve our 70 and 90-seat pay issues you are not only dreaming, you have a serious problem with pattern recognition.

ALPA won't solve all our problems the day after we vote it in. What it will do is force SGU to negotiate with us or face some kind of consequence. It will give us a recourse if we are treated unfairly. It will offer us some protection in the event of a merger. These are not things to be treated lightly. If it costs me 2% for SGU to notice a resounding no-vote on our next pay package, I'll consider that a bargain.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

The last ALPA contract that had any improvement was for express jet and now they have priced themselves out of work to the tune of 69 aircraft which is around a quarter of their fleet.

I hate to confuse you with the facts but CAL's decision to not use XJT for those 69 jets wasn't based on pilot costs. There were other issues in the deal that were far pricier than labor costs.

-Neal

 

[CFIT]

The XJT MEC announced that concessions would not be considered when the deal was in jepordy, and excutive management disclosed that costs were unable to compete or retain the contract.

The current contract has strong language concerning future work and many analysists predict that the future of XJT and the size will follow what is done for Continental. Do to high costs the demise of XJT is not if but when.

 

[US Flyer]

If you'd been here then you would probably have seen that it wasn't that great an idea the first time around. It's convenient for you to say you're pro-union, just not that union. If you've been at an ALPA carrier before, you should know that ALPA is the line pilots. All this anti-ALPA rhetoric makes me wonder if you guys are all former RJDC.

If you think keeping our current representative structure will solve our 70 and 90-seat pay issues you are not only dreaming, you have a serious problem with pattern recognition.

ALPA won't solve all our problems the day after we vote it in. What it will do is force SGU to negotiate with us or face some kind of consequence. It will give us a recourse if we are treated unfairly. It will offer us some protection in the event of a merger. These are not things to be treated lightly. If it costs me 2% for SGU to notice a resounding no-vote on our next pay package, I'll consider that a bargain.

Bluto- I hope there are more people at Skywest that think like you. I am not "in love" with unions or ALPA, but theres a reason that they are a necessary evil in this industry. Your people need some form of representation- I don't care who it is. But without it you have no future.

The reason ASA has not yet solved its contract talks has nothing to do with ALPA being inept. No one could have any idea how bad management can really be until you have worked at ASA.

You could even start your own in house union like other airlines. But please do something for your future and those of everyone that comes after you.

Flying a 90 seat jet for 50 seat wages is the moral equivalent to throwing trash out the window of your car driving down the highway. No respect for yourselves, or anyone else that follows. I see enough trash already.

Give a hoot- don't pollute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

If you'd been here then you would probably have seen that it wasn't that great an idea the first time around. It's convenient for you to say you're pro-union, just not that union. If you've been at an ALPA carrier before, you should know that ALPA is the line pilots. All this anti-ALPA rhetoric makes me wonder if you guys are all former RJDC.

If you think keeping our current representative structure will solve our 70 and 90-seat pay issues you are not only dreaming, you have a serious problem with pattern recognition.

ALPA won't solve all our problems the day after we vote it in. What it will do is force SGU to negotiate with us or face some kind of consequence. It will give us a recourse if we are treated unfairly. It will offer us some protection in the event of a merger. These are not things to be treated lightly. If it costs me 2% for SGU to notice a resounding no-vote on our next pay package, I'll consider that a bargain.

AMEN !!!!! I wish all the newbies could figure this stuff out!!

 

[Hawker dude]

Alpo sucks and D. Worthless sucks. Skywest join the teamsters or stay on your own. end of story

 

[BluDevAv8r]

The XJT MEC announced that concessions would not be considered when the deal was in jepordy, and excutive management disclosed that costs were unable to compete or retain the contract.

The current contract has strong language concerning future work and many analysists predict that the future of XJT and the size will follow what is done for Continental. Do to high costs the demise of XJT is not if but when.

I challenge you to find me one communication from XJT management (or CAL management for that matter) that cites pilot costs as the reason that CAL chose not to use XJT for those 69 jets. Good luck in this challenge.

-Neal

 

[FCR112]

Just wanted to put this out there to reiterate the young guys are not ALL choking on that newbie Kool-Aid. Some have done the homework and realize industry trends make it insane to not have any legality binding their "contract."

Whew, I sure hope I spelled everything correctlyyly after that homewrok coment.

 

[xjhawk]

very well said!

I have heard rumors that at my company......no names please....that it was a female FO who was putting all the best naked pics in the flight deck

I occaisionally find naked pictures of women in the cockpit too, but I don't let it turn me off to porn.

 

[Sig]

it was a female FO who was putting all the best naked pics in the flight deck

Sweet! Except she was probably a plug-ugly swamp donkey so hideous the tide wouldn't take her out. Ya know the type: Chews tobacco, rolls her own tampons, it makes you uncomfortable when she keeps scratching her balls... softball coach...

 

[FlySacto]

I found a window shade behind my seat the other day. Made my day, but it was only one of a pair. Anyone seen the other one?

Scott

It was an SMF captain. I'll ask him to COMAT it to you

FlySacto

 

[CFIT]

I challenge you to find me one communication from XJT management (or CAL management for that matter) that cites pilot costs as the reason that CAL chose not to use XJT for those 69 jets. Good luck in this challenge.

-Neal

This was reported in Aviation Week and Space Technology about the time that the contract cancellation was announced. But have been unsuccessful in getting to their search screen. The matter at hand, however, has been repeated in other aviation blots and the financial theories kind of stand to support the impression of high costs, no ability on concessions, will lead to looming problems in the near future. Sorry

 

[xpdriver]

ALPA at the regional level does nothing...All they do is take your money,,Zero support.. But try something else,In house,Teamsters...They are not going to give you anything because you do a good job....Good luck...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Actually at the regional level - the support is less than zero. ALPA blocked our attempts to get scope with Delta. ALPA provides the Delta pilots with financial analysis of the benefits of the cost cuts in the DCI program.

I hope the SkyWest pilots join ALPA because it is what we need to present a united front to fix yours and our 70 seat pay problem. (40% more revenue, but no more pay?) Or join Teamsters and maybe we ASA pilots can vote to join you.

ALPA is by far the best choice if national would represent us - unfortunately they feel their fiduciary duty stops with taking our money.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Sweet! Except she was probably a plug-ugly swamp donkey so hideous the tide wouldn't take her out. Ya know the type: Chews tobacco, rolls her own tampons, it makes you uncomfortable when she keeps scratching her balls... softball coach...

Sig,
You so krazy... I bez cryin' over dat juan. Dat wuz funny as a MoFo... Bouyyyyyyyyyyy..

 

[Positive Rate]

Hey ahh...if there is no legal stuff to bind you? What is stopping a strike or sick out.....of course you would have to get everyone on board to do that? Like to combat the 90, 70 seat for 50 seat pay...further pay or work rule cuts. But if it was succesful what can happen to you? Is there other legally binding issues that I'm not aware of? I mean by not having ALPA or any other union.

 

[ArcticFlier]

The real shocker to me is that so many pilots are willing to give them a free pass on this and numerous other issues.

People, you are pilots. Recognition of dangerous trends is probably your single most important skill. How can you not recognize the disturbing trends over the past 5 years with respect to pay, QOL, and total compensation? Don't listen to anyone's propaganda, but please do open your eyes and look at what's been happening here.

I honestly don't care where you came from. Unfortunately, I have a feeling most of you spent so little time at your previous, second-tier, ALPA carriers that you have no idea that what has happened to us recently, legally, would never have happened, even at Mesa, without receiving something in return. I won't go into the long list of concessions we've made, but I don't accept that because other airlines have had trouble that we should grin and bear it. Not considering the position we, as a company, are now in. We should expect better of our management team and better of our representative body. How do you propose we get it without a change?

It's called incrementalism. Take a bit here, a bit there. No one notices. Do you throw a frog in boiling water? No. You put them in the water and turn up the heat slowly, until it's boiling.

Time for us to turn up the heat. We hold the success of this Company in our hands (Thrust levers, SOP to the T, et al.)


AF

 

[redbook]

Actually at the regional level - the support is less than zero. ALPA blocked our attempts to get scope with Delta. ALPA provides the Delta pilots with financial analysis of the benefits of the cost cuts in the DCI program.

I hope the SkyWest pilots join ALPA because it is what we need to present a united front to fix yours and our 70 seat pay problem. (40% more revenue, but no more pay?) Or join Teamsters and maybe we ASA pilots can vote to join you.

ALPA is by far the best choice if national would represent us - unfortunately they feel their fiduciary duty stops with taking our money.

I couldn't agree more with your last statement. I also would like to believe that the best course for ASA and SKYW would be, as you suggested, SKYW becoming ALPA and creating the united front.

Unfortunately from experiences at Trans States, I believe that ALPA's understanding of their fiduciary duty, as you put it so well, would be complete once the SKYW pilots joined ALPA. Your united front would not fix the 70 seat problem, ALPA would simply eat the new dues money and shrug their shoulders and mumble about living to fight another day.

I would submit to you that with your combined size, SKYW and ASA, you would be better of with an in house, and ALPA would be more than happy to contract out whatever services (aeromedical etc) you would need. I think if you went that route and were successful, you would have many regional unions looking to link up with you, in some type of alliance.

 

[xpdriver]

The only problem with IN HOUSE is no political strength in DC..

Two points: getting all the regional together would be great, very hard to do. Second: nothing will ever get done unless the pilots are radical. You have to be willing to give it all up to achieve your goals. MGMT knows that to many of you love to fly and will do anything to fly(wrong attitude). Also you have to many older pilots that are fine with working 15 days for 80 grand. And these guys are usually the MEC. Kick them out, get less senior guys in leadership, guys that will not only get pay,benfits for senior guys but also jr guys...Now this sound simple, maybe to simple, well I believe it is that easy if you have good leadership and push harder that MGMT does. good luck

 

[Morning Wood]

Thank you,
The terminal slide our QOL has taken is mostly missed by the new hire F/Os who spew their kool aid tainted spew. 50-99 seat pay rate, PBS, forced ASE flying, and many other issues were foisted on this pilot group. For all you young relatively new F/Os, ask a few of us who were here when Jerry sent us $50 checks for Thanksgiving and Christmas, when the schedules had more than 13 days off. The QOL slide has been minding numbing, its hard to know how much it has slid, when you were not here to experience it.
PBR

I'd bet you the adult beverage of your choice that I've been here longer
than you, and we NEVER got $50 checks for Thanksgiving. Only Christmas.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Actually at the regional level - the support is less than zero.

I hope the SkyWest pilots join ALPA .

Ok. This makes no sense whatsoever.

ALPA sucks for regionals but a regional should join it.