SkyWest, Not Paid in Training, et al

[WhiteCloud]

Re: Re: Re: SkyWest, Not Paid in Training, e

And the worst thing is, they are non-union so the company can just impose new work-rules and salaries without even consulting with the pilot group. I'm not saying that this will happen, but these sorts of things are a slippery slope. They start by screwing over the new hires and eventually they work their way up to wage and benefits cuts.

If they had told you from the beginning that you would not be paid during training, then this wouldn't bother me so much. But promising you pay during training and then changing their mind is just playing dirty.

Unfortunately, you're right on the money. Turnover is slowing and pilot applications are piling up on their desk and some of the posters on this board are already talking about shelling out 20K to get a jump on their colleagues. Let's see what Skywest actually does. We'll know in a few months. Ziggy1

 

[MONKEY]

$400,000

Don't forget, it's not just the money at the end of your career that you have to consider. If you start at your airline two years earlier you will be two years ahead on the pay scale, meaning that you make a little bit more each year than you would have if you went the long way.

 

[p.b.]

Have you factored the effects of two 3 year furloughs during that career, and the concessions taken when the airline needs financial help? What if some of your income is in the form of ESOP?

Would you please prepare a spreadsheet on what the return would be with these contingencies in place? I'm going to need that by 1700 today.

 

[realitycheck]

no, but

p.b.- sorry, can't help you there but I can offer a much-circulated, yet at times forgotten piece of literature:

SO YOU WANT TO BE AN AIRLINE PILOT

I walked into the interview with a great deal of confidence and enthusiasm. Flying airplanes was my one true passion in this life. This was my big chance to merge my occupation with my love. I would become an airline pilot.

"So you want to be an airline pilot?" the interviewer inquired.

"Yes, sir, more than anything else I have ever wanted," I replied, realizing I sounded like an anxious adolescent.

"Well, great, welcome aboard," the airline executive said.

"You mean I'm hired?!" I cheered.

"You bet, we're glad to have you. Actually, we've had trouble finding good pilots to hire," the exec explained. If I was surprised, it was overshadowed by my joy of reaching my dream.

"Let's just go over a few points before you sign on the dotted line," the company man chortled. "We're going to send you to the world's most renowned medical center. They'll spend two days probing you body orifices, draining and analyzing your blood, and administering psychological exams. They'll literally take you apart and put you back together. If they find any hint of current or future problems, you're fired and can find your own ride home."

"Gee, I think my health is O.K.," I nervously choked out.

The manager went on, "Good, next we'll evaluate your flying skills in an aircraft you've never been in before. "If we don't like the way you perform, you're fired,"

I was confident with my flying, but this guy was making me nervous. He continued, "Next, if you're still here, we'll run you through our training program. If during any time in the next 10 years you decide to leave the company, you'll have to reimburse us $20,000, or we'll sue you. Also if you fail to measure up during training, you're fired."

The man who had just given me my dream job listed still more hurdles. "Each time, before we allow you near one of our multimillion dollar aircraft we'll X-ray your flight bag and luggage, because we don't trust you. Also we'll ask you to pass through a magnetometer each time. If you fail to do so, you'll be arrested and jailed."

"When you've completed your flight, we'll have you provide a urine sample, because we don't trust you to not take drugs. Very soon, we plan to take a blood sample to look for more drugs.

"Also if you ever fly with another crew member who may have used drugs or alcohol, you must report to us immediately. If you fail to notice that anyone has used these substances, you'll be fired, have your license to fly revoked, and be fined $10,000."

"Every six months, we want you to go back to the medical center for another exam. If they ever find a hint of a problem, your license to fly will be revoked and we'll fire you. Anytime you see a medical person, you must tell us about it so we can see if you need to be grounded and terminated.

Also, we need to examine your driving record, and you must tell us if you have even any minor infractions so we can remove you from the cockpit as soon as
possible."

"At any time, without notice, a special branch of the government will send one of its inspectors to ride in your aircraft. The inspector will demand to see your papers and license, If your papers are not in order, you'll be removed, fined, terminated, and possibly jailed."

"If at any time you make an error in judgment or an honest human mistake, you will be terminated, be fined tens of thousands of dollars, and be dragged through months of court proceedings. The government will make sure you never fly again for any airline."

Smiling an evil smile now, the airline hirer went on. "Oh, and one last thing to cover. Occasionally, we in management fail to see a trend and screw up royally or the country's economy falls flat on its face. If as a result of one of those events the corporation begins to lose money, you as an employee will be expected to make up the losses from your paycheck."

"Now sign here," he pointed, grinning as he handed me a pen.

I faked a sudden nosebleed. Holding my head back and pinching my nostrils, I hurried from his office. When I got to the hall, I began to run. I ran all the way to my car.

I figured if I hurried I could still get to the county vocational school before 5:00 and enroll in the industrial welding career program or maybe become one of those Air Traffic Controllers.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Re: no, but

p.b.- sorry, can't help you there but I can offer a much-circulated, yet at times forgotten piece of literature:

SO YOU WANT TO BE AN AIRLINE PILOT

I walked into the interview with a great deal of confidence and enthusiasm. Flying airplanes was my one true passion in this life. This was my big chance to merge my occupation with my love. I would become an airline pilot.

"So you want to be an airline pilot?" the interviewer inquired.

"Yes, sir, more than anything else I have ever wanted," I replied, realizing I sounded like an anxious adolescent.

"Well, great, welcome aboard," the airline executive said.

"You mean I'm hired?!" I cheered.

"You bet, we're glad to have you. Actually, we've had trouble finding good pilots to hire," the exec explained. If I was surprised, it was overshadowed by my joy of reaching my dream.

"Let's just go over a few points before you sign on the dotted line," the company man chortled. "We're going to send you to the world's most renowned medical center. They'll spend two days probing you body orifices, draining and analyzing your blood, and administering psychological exams. They'll literally take you apart and put you back together. If they find any hint of current or future problems, you're fired and can find your own ride home."

"Gee, I think my health is O.K.," I nervously choked out.

The manager went on, "Good, next we'll evaluate your flying skills in an aircraft you've never been in before. "If we don't like the way you perform, you're fired,"

I was confident with my flying, but this guy was making me nervous. He continued, "Next, if you're still here, we'll run you through our training program. If during any time in the next 10 years you decide to leave the company, you'll have to reimburse us $20,000, or we'll sue you. Also if you fail to measure up during training, you're fired."

The man who had just given me my dream job listed still more hurdles. "Each time, before we allow you near one of our multimillion dollar aircraft we'll X-ray your flight bag and luggage, because we don't trust you. Also we'll ask you to pass through a magnetometer each time. If you fail to do so, you'll be arrested and jailed."

"When you've completed your flight, we'll have you provide a urine sample, because we don't trust you to not take drugs. Very soon, we plan to take a blood sample to look for more drugs.

"Also if you ever fly with another crew member who may have used drugs or alcohol, you must report to us immediately. If you fail to notice that anyone has used these substances, you'll be fired, have your license to fly revoked, and be fined $10,000."

"Every six months, we want you to go back to the medical center for another exam. If they ever find a hint of a problem, your license to fly will be revoked and we'll fire you. Anytime you see a medical person, you must tell us about it so we can see if you need to be grounded and terminated.

Also, we need to examine your driving record, and you must tell us if you have even any minor infractions so we can remove you from the cockpit as soon as
possible."

"At any time, without notice, a special branch of the government will send one of its inspectors to ride in your aircraft. The inspector will demand to see your papers and license, If your papers are not in order, you'll be removed, fined, terminated, and possibly jailed."

"If at any time you make an error in judgment or an honest human mistake, you will be terminated, be fined tens of thousands of dollars, and be dragged through months of court proceedings. The government will make sure you never fly again for any airline."

Smiling an evil smile now, the airline hirer went on. "Oh, and one last thing to cover. Occasionally, we in management fail to see a trend and screw up royally or the country's economy falls flat on its face. If as a result of one of those events the corporation begins to lose money, you as an employee will be expected to make up the losses from your paycheck."

"Now sign here," he pointed, grinning as he handed me a pen.

I faked a sudden nosebleed. Holding my head back and pinching my nostrils, I hurried from his office. When I got to the hall, I began to run. I ran all the way to my car.

I figured if I hurried I could still get to the county vocational school before 5:00 and enroll in the industrial welding career program or maybe become one of those Air Traffic Controllers.

Reality, Maybe you're not as naive as I thought. Good post. Ziggy1

 

[100LL... Again!]

If you are going to assume that a bridge program pilot pays out $20k to get a two-year jump, you must consider the cost of money.


If they have $20K cash, you must consider the loss of return on investment and sutract from the theoretical $400K 'extra' they could make by getting ahead two years.

If they must finance the $20K, then you must consider all the interest charges, THEN add the cost of money loss TOGETHER, and subtract from the $400K. There is, of course, no free lunch.


Plus, you must also consider cashflow. If the debt payments on the student loans cause a low enough cash flow early in the career, additional debt may have to be carried to buy basic necessities.

The 'extra' $400K can become very mythical when these unpopular but very real factors are considered.

Not to mention that bridge program grads will possibly have a mark against them interviewing at a major if the airline uses a pilot interviewer. I know I would be biased against hiring one unless they really impressed me.

 

[Jeepman]

When I first heard of no pay for new hires I was pretty pissed, then I started to think about it. United (and probably Delta) are putting the screws to SkyWest & saying there are going to pay us 20% less & look at other carriers. Never mind the fact that we have an awesome performance record.

What does Skywest do? Do they wait until bankruptcy or furlough to reduce costs, no they do it NOW. 20% pay cut for top execs, 15% cut for all V.P.'s, and 10% for all managers. Did they ask for the lowest wage groups to take a pay cut. No. Yes they did eliminate new hire pay, but you have to appreciate that they are taking every step to control costs with as little effect to the employees as possible.

Should we go union? Sure, lets slap a United PLUS sticker onto our flight bags and demand to be the highest paid pilots in the industry. Let's be like Divided, or I mean United Airlines where every work group hates the other group and work individually to destroy the airline. That way we will all be furloughed or tacked on to the bottom of someones seniority list. Yes SAPA is a joke, & yes management does go against the policy manual, but they would do the same thing with a union! THE ONLY THING A UNION GUARANTEES IS THAT YOU WILL PAY UNION DUES!!!

 

[dogg]

Ah Jeepman, you seem to be pretty smart about these issues, given that you are just a rank beginner with a whole 3000hrs. You cannot judge ALPA by the greed of United and Delta etc.. Alpa was not established to get pilots more money and it is only as good as the local council period

 

[realitycheck]

20k v 400k, hiring practices

100LL-

Later in this thread, I actually applied some of the issues you mentioned to the $20k versus $400k investment; the NPV was still in the pilot's favor to invest $20k to get ahead by two years. However, you are correct that interest charges and cash outflows were not considered- what the heck, I have a BBA and an MBA so I have to keep some theoretical foundations in my opinions to be true to my educators

But I must disagree with you on one point- not hiring a pilot for a major because he/she bought a bridge program is at best judging a book by its cover. When I hired pilots for a 135 operator, I found certain attributes that "in general" lead to a better training success rate; however, these applicants were usually coming from flight schools, banner towing, etc.

A pilot from a 121 regional operator who bridged their way into the right seat of an RJ and logged enough hours to be competitive for a major has met industry standards; all you should be judging is their personality, technical knowledge and fit into your organization, not faulting them for perhaps being a little smart.

I think you'll appreciate my comments when you consider the rumors you hear such as Delta and Southwest favoring military pilots, or other companies asserting their own "affirmative action."

 

[100LL... Again!]

realitycheck-

my point was not that one was more cost advantageous than the other. Only that ALL factors must be weighed. I have not even begun to list 'all' the factors. Only a couple more.

Also, PFT and bridge programs are something I personally oppose, because they do not represent a love for avaiation IN MY OPINION. They represent get-ahead-quick. If I was doing the interviewing, I would consider this. Especially since I have paid my dues. As an employer I value work ethic and a sense of pride in each level of aviation. The go-straight-to-the-RJ crowd can do so if they are able. I will probably not prefer them over a pilot who came up through the ranks. Short-cutters. Do it if you like, but dn't expect me to value it.