SkyWest Crj-900 orders

[DoinTime]

Scope has become the non-negotiable item for this round, for both DL and NW.

Unfortunately for the NW pilots the Delta boys have already dropped their pants on 70 seat scope. I feel secure that the NW MEC will not allow the formation of NewCo but they won't have much leverage protecting some 70 seat outsourcing considering the numbers of these aircraft currently being outsourced at other carriers.

What I see being likely is that the NW pilots will give up what NW originally wanted from their scope. Seating capacity will be raised to 85 seats in the Avro's, another 30-40 70-seaters will be put into service, and the 50-seat restrictions will be lifted.

 

[General Lee]

Unfortunately for the NW pilots the Delta boys have already dropped their pants on 70 seat scope. I feel secure that the NW MEC will not allow the formation of NewCo but they won't have much leverage protecting some 70 seat outsourcing considering the numbers of these aircraft currently being outsourced at other carriers.

What I see being likely is that the NW pilots will give up what NW originally wanted from their scope. Seating capacity will be raised to 85 seats in the Avro's, another 30-40 70-seaters will be put into service, and the 50-seat restrictions will be lifted.

Yes, we $crewed up and allowed 70 seat flying, that doesn't mean we haven't learned from that. At DL most of our loyal, super senior, non-RJ caring pilots HAVE LEFT. We had 2300 retirements in 18 months. Guess what? We now have a younger workforce that actually knows something about RJs and their effects on manning. We barely passed our last TA (58%), and any more tinkering and it will go down---and both ALPA and the company know it. The huge Summer flying season is coming up, and to top that off---the judge (good ole Prudence---who is still incharge) told the company they would NOT get scope for free----nope. The company told the judge they really NEEDED the $325 million a year in savings, over and over again. The judge then stated we will get credit (in that $325 million) for any dumping of the pensions----and we owe $10.6 billion. Our savings there would be $180-220 million a year--just for the pilots. Add that to our recent pay cut, and you go over the $325 million THEY NEED---as they TOLD THE JUDGE. We have offered to fly any 79 seaters and 100 seaters, and for pretty competitive rates---USAir/AWA 100 seat rates are a tad bit higher than the Jetblue rates, but Jetblue goes time and a half over 70 hours. We will see how it goes......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pipejockey]

Does Delta scope retain anything over 70 seats for mainline?
Part of the problem is how the mainliners caved in on scope and now the cats out of the bag. It would be nice to stand firm at 70 seaters. Even if it takes lousy regional pay rates pay rates for the EMB 190's-195's and the CRJ900's at least they will be at mainline and with a few years seniority you can put them behind you.

 

[hotwing]

HEADLINESChange Display [ hide $$ edit ] •Forbes Ranks SkyWest Among America's Best Big Companiesat Forbes.com (Tue, Jan 3)

 

[propjockey]

General,

I've been pondering something lately, and want your measured opinion. Do you think the RJ camel can ever be pushed all the way back out of the tent? (Let's face it -- the camel has been fully in the tent and eating your couscous for years). From all you say, it seems like we're on the same page, except that you're already at the major airline, and I'm at a regional (albeit one of the best) hoping that it won't turn into a lifetime career, or at least that if it does turn out to be my "career," it actually lasts long enough for me to retire. My position naturally leads me to a conflict of interest. Yes, I want the majors to grow and prosper -- but not at the expense of my here-and-now job.

From my perspective, mainline ALPA MECs really dropped the ball back in the early 90's when RJs first started to appear. Instead of holding out their fingers in the sign of the cross as if to ward off vampires, they should have welcomed the Barbie Jets with open arms as the new, entry-level mainline jets -- EVEN if first-year pay at the majors dropped quite a bit. I hope this isn't merely 20/20 hindsight. I'd like to think that at least some groups saw the RJ writing on the wall. Point is, I'd MUCH rather being flying a CRJ-700 at United [or insert your major airline of preference here] (even for the same money that I make now) than SkyWest!

Since this sounds basically like what you're advocating at Delta, I wonder if you think this is really possible. As the majors regain strength, what do you think is the probability that regionals as we now know them will begin to shrink, and smaller "mainline" jets will go to the majors?

To use another cliche, I don't think it's completely possible to put the genie back in the bottle, but I'd like to think that these EMB-190 size airplanes will go to the majors instead of the regionals. I think the CRJ-700s, 705s and 900s and the EMB-170s are a lost cause, even up to, but maybe not including, 90 seats.

I'd like to hear your guess.

I'll venture to say there's only a 25 - 30% chance that EMB-190 class aircraft will not appear at the regionals.

 

[enuffalready]

why??????

Why do you care what General thinks? He doesn't make decisons. He isn't going to make one list( why would you want him to) What is the point? He runs around screaming victory with regotiating rates close to Jet Blue 190 rates that were imposed on a group of pilots that will never fly them.

I log on here from time to time to see what is in store for regionals, ASA, skywest, etc. and am constantly laughing as all you guys asking Sir GL what he thinks...

The 705 or 70 seaters or whatever are never going to go to mainline and we all know it. Now, I realize that we(ASA) may never see them either as they will prob go to Mesa, etc the will NEVER go to Mainline.

Unless of course you mean an new company with furloughed delta guys making $40 an hour, no pension, crappy work rules, no duty/trip rigs, 10 days off, with new gate agents and new flight attendants as mainline.

 

[General Lee]

General,

I've been pondering something lately, and want your measured opinion. Do you think the RJ camel can ever be pushed all the way back out of the tent? (Let's face it -- the camel has been fully in the tent and eating your couscous for years). From all you say, it seems like we're on the same page, except that you're already at the major airline, and I'm at a regional (albeit one of the best) hoping that it won't turn into a lifetime career, or at least that if it does turn out to be my "career," it actually lasts long enough for me to retire. My position naturally leads me to a conflict of interest. Yes, I want the majors to grow and prosper -- but not at the expense of my here-and-now job.

From my perspective, mainline ALPA MECs really dropped the ball back in the early 90's when RJs first started to appear. Instead of holding out their fingers in the sign of the cross as if to ward off vampires, they should have welcomed the Barbie Jets with open arms as the new, entry-level mainline jets -- EVEN if first-year pay at the majors dropped quite a bit. I hope this isn't merely 20/20 hindsight. I'd like to think that at least some groups saw the RJ writing on the wall. Point is, I'd MUCH rather being flying a CRJ-700 at United [or insert your major airline of preference here] (even for the same money that I make now) than SkyWest!

Since this sounds basically like what you're advocating at Delta, I wonder if you think this is really possible. As the majors regain strength, what do you think is the probability that regionals as we now know them will begin to shrink, and smaller "mainline" jets will go to the majors?

To use another cliche, I don't think it's completely possible to put the genie back in the bottle, but I'd like to think that these EMB-190 size airplanes will go to the majors instead of the regionals. I think the CRJ-700s, 705s and 900s and the EMB-170s are a lost cause, even up to, but maybe not including, 90 seats.

I'd like to hear your guess.

I'll venture to say there's only a 25 - 30% chance that EMB-190 class aircraft will not appear at the regionals.

Well, we all know by now that we should have kept the jets starting at the 50 seater, and then just hired more people for them. We all know that now. Then, we lost the 70 seater when things were going great in the late 90s. I don't think we will cave again on that. A lot of what we want is to replace what we will lose----737-200s at DL and DC9s at NW. We would like to fly the replacements---and it looks like the E190 is about the right size. The E175 is flown by mainline at Air Canada, and so far no one else has it. The E170 is probably gone forever, but it really is nice and has the look and feel probably of a mini 737. So, we would like to keep the line there, and then just hire into the E175 or bigger. The CR9 at Mesa is interesting, and so is the CRJ-705. Jazz has the CRJ-705, and Mesa has the "rights" for up to 86 CR9s I believe. That, so far, is the only regional airline allowed 90 seaters in the USA, and no other major has (via the unions) allowed that other than USAir. I think the 50 seaters are on the way out, and maybe more 70 seaters will be allowed to replace them. I would think pilots would like the opportunity to eventually move up from an RJ to something bigger, and allowing larger planes at the regionals could prevent that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CFIT]

I would think pilots would like the opportunity to eventually move up from an RJ to something bigger, and allowing larger planes at the regionals could prevent that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

So we can act like a self absorbed coinbag pirate like yourself?

Face it, you and your dorkfest but-club have rolled over on every contract point management has asked for. Management has been teabagging you big time.

You hav'nt won one battle, not one, for over a year. So what, you only got less of a pay cut, it's still a pay cut.

 

[CFIT]

Well, we all know by now that we should have kept the jets starting at the 50 seater, and then just hired more people for them. We all know that now.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Remember when your over inflated ego's hated them? wadboy

 

[Halo_RJdriver]

Lmao

So we can act like a self absorbed coinbag pirate like yourself?

Face it, you and your dorkfest but-club have rolled over on every contract point management has asked for. Management has been teabagging you big time.

You hav'nt won one battle, not one, for over a year. So what, you only got less of a pay cut, it's still a pay cut.

LMAO...nice post!!!

 

[AV8700]

Well, we all know by now that we should have kept the jets starting at the 50 seater, and then just hired more people for them. We all know that now. Then, we lost the 70 seater when things were going great in the late 90s. I don't think we will cave again on that. A lot of what we want is to replace what we will lose----737-200s at DL and DC9s at NW. We would like to fly the replacements---and it looks like the E190 is about the right size. The E175 is flown by mainline at Air Canada, and so far no one else has it. The E170 is probably gone forever, but it really is nice and has the look and feel probably of a mini 737. So, we would like to keep the line there, and then just hire into the E175 or bigger. The CR9 at Mesa is interesting, and so is the CRJ-705. Jazz has the CRJ-705, and Mesa has the "rights" for up to 86 CR9s I believe. That, so far, is the only regional airline allowed 90 seaters in the USA, and no other major has (via the unions) allowed that other than USAir. I think the 50 seaters are on the way out, and maybe more 70 seaters will be allowed to replace them. I would think pilots would like the opportunity to eventually move up from an RJ to something bigger, and allowing larger planes at the regionals could prevent that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

So why haven't you argued in court for a merger with Comair? That brings all the aircraft over, 50 and up.

 

[Tank Commander]

GL, my only problem with you is when you talk about the whim of the mainline pilots, it's like you guys give me the right to exist. The truth is, Because of your's and your half witted friends up at mainline, I and many of my friends are domed in a career at the regional level. Your's and your friends self centered egotistical attitudes over the past ten years have led this industry down the road it is on with the help of a lot of mainline management groups holding you hands.

 

[General Lee]

So we can act like a self absorbed coinbag pirate like yourself?

Face it, you and your dorkfest but-club have rolled over on every contract point management has asked for. Management has been teabagging you big time.

You hav'nt won one battle, not one, for over a year. So what, you only got less of a pay cut, it's still a pay cut.

Say what? Ok dumba$$. We are in BANKRUPTCY. You didn't think we would take a pay cut? You didn't? Any judge would have ruled for that. That is what happens when your airline goes bankrupt.

And we have rolled over on everything? Really? What about scope? Yes, we allowed retired guys (who were NOT 60) to fly a bit longer---but that was because we allowed unlimited retirements with 24 hours notice. If 400 guys retired at the end of a month, all of the 777s would have had to be parked with no qualified captains. But you didn't think of that, did you? Nope. And, I moved up 2300 numbers and can already hold MD88 Captain. (I hope to bid it on the next bid)

And, we fought the company on their "give us everything for free" deal, and the judge AGREED with us. Yup. She said we will get credit for anything they want, and nothing is for free. Did you forget about that? You did.

So, you really are the one is who is the "coinbag pirate". (NICE ONE) You need to go worry about your own situation, it really will get worse for you.
Bye now.


No, really, Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

GL, my only problem with you is when you talk about the whim of the mainline pilots, it's like you guys give me the right to exist. The truth is, Because of your's and your half witted friends up at mainline, I and many of my friends are domed in a career at the regional level. Your's and your friends self centered egotistical attitudes over the past ten years have led this industry down the road it is on with the help of a lot of mainline management groups holding you hands.

This is a cycle----a real bad one though. Every ten years we seem to go through this, although this is as bad as it ever gets according to some of the senior guys I have flown with. Nobody wants a liquidation, and it is rare with very large airlines (with lots of unemployment if it happens).

You need to realize that we are fighting for our collective lives now with scope. The "commuters" (now REGIONALS) used to fly only props and fly around a region. Now, with larger RJs, they are going for routes that were always mainline routes. That really is the problem. IF you want to leave your regional, you need to see that certain sized planes need to stay at the majors, even at lower pay rates(set by the competition), to eventually get you to that larger plane and the "better" pay. If you want to stay on the RJ and make a preset wage (that seems to be shrinking at the same rate as ours), then that is your right. Just realize that we will be fighting to keep what we have now.

Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[General Lee]

So why haven't you argued in court for a merger with Comair? That brings all the aircraft over, 50 and up.

A merger? You mean a seniority merger? Or do you mean a staple? Why sure, a staple, but Lawson and Ford don't want to be FOs again. That would not happen----unless there was huge savings in it for Delta. But, I have read that they are getting ready to possibly sell Comair. What would happen then?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Remember when your over inflated ego's hated them? wadboy

You really don't make sense. Is your head ok? Do you wear earplugs in that Metro? You should, really.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Rogue5]

IF you want to leave your regional, you need to see that certain sized planes need to stay at the majors, even at lower pay rates(set by the competition), to eventually get you to that larger plane and the "better" pay.

GL -

If you think that any regional airline pilot out there does not believe this to be true, you truly are detached from the world of logical thought. The problem is that all us young bucks are dealing with the sh!t-storm world you and all your mainline-ALPA brothers have left us. Do you think regional pilots have any power to coerce mainline management into any course of action? I think not.

Y'all shoulda taken care of this debacle in the late 90's before it went down. It happened on your watch, you only have yourselves to blame.

Unfortunately, we all have to pay the price...

BTW, I really missed your past discussions about your impending Mad Dog upgrade. Thanks for bringing it back to amuse us all.

Laughing, so I don't cry,

R5

 

[General Lee]

GL -

If you think that any regional airline pilot out there does not believe this to be true, you truly are detached from the world of logical thought. The problem is that all us young bucks are dealing with the sh!t-storm world you and all your mainline-ALPA brothers have left us. Do you think regional pilots have any power to coerce mainline management into any course of action? I think not.

Y'all shoulda taken care of this debacle in the late 90's before it went down. It happened on your watch, you only have yourselves to blame.

Unfortunately, we all have to pay the price...

BTW, I really missed your past discussions about your impending Mad Dog upgrade. Thanks for bringing it back to amuse us all.

Laughing, so I don't cry,

R5

Boy, I guess I was making huge bucks flying the E120 out of MDW in the early 90's right? You guys seem to forget that EVERYONE at the regionals, now and then, gets paid krap. I bet my pay rate back then was half of what you make now. Thirty dollars an hour for an RJ FO now? I think that is great, except I made $14 an hour starting out as a Dornier 228 FO. It suked big time. I was single and could do it back then. If you have 3 kids, then it may not be for you. Everyone has to start somewhere. The pilots at regionals these days think that since they fly a 70 seat jet, they deserve higher wages. I agree, but MANAGEMENT DOES NOT, they still see you in the E120. Your RJ is now the new "prop feeder" of the past. That is what is happening. My advice is to get on with a LCC or wait for a major that you like (CAL is hiring)---and go for it, like the rest of us did.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CFIT]

You really don't make sense. Is your head ok? Do you wear earplugs in that Metro? You should, really.

Bye Bye--General Lee

The last five posts are from you. If you didn't have yourself to argue with, what would you do? jockcheese

 

[General Lee]

The last five posts are from you. If you didn't have yourself to argue with, what would you do? jockcheese

You seem to answer, and not very well too. Why are you obsessed with dongs? Stay away from me, I am taken!!!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[CFIT]

LMAO...nice post!!!

Ouch, generalsukfest takes another.....wonder where?

 

[CFIT]

You seem to answer, and not very well too. Why are you obsessed with dongs? Stay away from me, I am taken!!!


Bye Bye---General Lee

Your boyfriend have you by the ears again?

Remember to wipe your chin before you check in.....

 

[Rogue5]

Boy, I guess I was making huge bucks flying the E120 out of MDW in the early 90's right? You guys seem to forget that EVERYONE at the regionals, now and then, gets paid krap. I bet my pay rate back then was half of what you make now. Thirty dollars an hour for an RJ FO now? I think that is great, except I made $14 an hour starting out as a Dornier 228 FO. It sucked big time. I was single and could do it back then. If you have 3 kids, then it may not be for you. Everyone has to start somewhere. The pilots at regionals these days think that since they fly a 70 seat jet, they deserve higher wages. I agree, but MANAGEMENT DOES NOT, they still see you in the E120. Your RJ is now the new "prop feeder" of the past. That is what is happening. My advice is to get on with a LCC or wait for a major that you like (CAL is hiring)---and go for it, like the rest of us did.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Re-read my post. I never spoke a word about pilots at regionals wanting more pay there.

What I said was that we are screwed because of the lack of career advancement previously available to you and yours thanks to those ahead of you holding the line for future generations. ALPA (YOU) has failed, and now you point a finger like we have any say in the matter.

I would LOVE to fly my XX-seat (or soon, XXX-seat) capacity jet for a mainline carrier with mainline benefits. Unfortunately, you allowed those jobs to be outsourced to regional carriers. Now the vast majority of jobs available are almost exclusively at relatively low-pay regional airlines.

I have my job. I have my type. I have my time. But wait: there are 10,000 guys (furloughs and an ever increasing supply of new-guys) applying for 1,000 jobs this year with the same or better quals than me.

You make it sound like you had it just as bad as us spoiled children and we should just sack-up and get to work. Trust me, my dear, you rode in on a gilded ship that has since set sail never to return.

Thank you for your arrogance, it has helped more than anything else (except, perhaps, your hubris) to accelerate the downfall...

 

[~~~^~~~]

General:

What is it with we "lost 70 seat flying." Do you mean like the Germans lost the Bismark? Somebody shot it out from under you?

You did not lose anything. You "traded" it. You traded flying that you felt was beneath you in exchange for higher pay on your equipment. Just like I sold my little Checkmate ski boat, when we found a good deal on a Mastercraft. Now that I have sold it, it is no longer mine.

You and your buddies see the water starting to come over the sides of your sinking ship you want to jump into someone else's boat. It does not matter that it is not your boat - this is a matter of survival for some - honor and morality are forgotten as professionals claw eachother for driftwood to ensure their survival for another day.

The shame of it is, that it is not a fair fight. ALPA will not allow any "regional" pilot title to the flying they perform.

Things are taken when you are overwhelmed by a force much greater than you.

As I sit here in my RJ with the guns of mighty ALPA aimed at my bow we prepare to repel boarders, but there is nothing we can do. ALPA has stripped us of any power and the alter ego proliferation of carriers (encourageed by ALPA) has taken our swords.

Another point - why all the hysteria about NewCo? He11, their own MEC proposed NWA70. NewCo is the same thing with different pay rates and again the lifeboat fixing to get boarded belongs to Mesaba.

Thanks for playing along with us, in these hostile times, but jeesh, ALPA mainline has a really weird political perspective on realiity.

~~~^~~~

 

[79%N1]

Its so funny how the ML guys and their egos wanted nothing to do with the RJ, blame it for all their woes........but we'll fly the EMB175/190, because they look and feel like a 737!!! LOL! See, it looks like a plane that is OK for those ML boys to fly, so its no longer beneath them! It is however, probably too much for us regional boys to handle!

For all you thinking the 70's, 90's and 100's need to go to ML because the pay and benefits are so much better there, think again. That gap has closed, and soon the ML job will be void of pensions, great pay and work rules. The only real benefit is the chance to move up to bigger aircraft and more pay in the future. So GL doesnt flame me, that is a good reason for them to go there....but not because the pay and benefits on those specific planes will be much better at the ML!

 

[CFIT]

So True 79%

I am so sick of that garbage from generalsukfest that because he has his dork freinds on furlough that the flying "is theirs".

I remember years ago when they flipped us off when we got the RJ, now it's not so bad.

Too bad, too late, go work at home depot.

 

[~~~^~~~]

For all you thinking the 70's, 90's and 100's need to go to ML because the pay and benefits are so much better there, think again. That gap has closed!

True.

If ALPA wants to restore the flying to mainline, they can do it through mergers. Simply taking the airplanes without the crews is an act of Piracy.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Most of us didn't initially plan on a career at the regional level, most of us will nonetheless spend our careers at the regional level. Given the choice of growth at my present company flying bigger planes vs. a one in ten chance of getting hired by Delta in about five years I'll keep my seniority and QOL thank you very much. Pretty simple, E-190 captain for XYZ regional next year or a chance to captain the same airplane for Delta in about ten years for slightly more pay. That's not being short sighted, that's common sense. Ever notice how doing something "For the good of the profession" always involves us little guy's taking a bullet to protect the QOL of someone making three times what we do? Sure, someday that could be you making the big bucks if you just eat excrement for...5,6,7 who knows how many more years. Pay your dues and thanks for waiting your turn, now here's your furlow notice; we'll call you back in a year or three. I have a good job at a good regional, it may be the last job I ever have so I better make the most of it.

 

[79%N1]

Shriek!!!!! Your attitude is shocking!!! You mean your not making personal decisions based on furthering the career of your mainline brothers???? How dare you! How could you think of what may be best for you and your family and not want to protect the senior Delta captains wish to keep his wifes B'mer and the big boat at Lanier? You disgust me!

 

[General Lee]

General:

What is it with we "lost 70 seat flying." Do you mean like the Germans lost the Bismark? Somebody shot it out from under you?

You did not lose anything. You "traded" it. You traded flying that you felt was beneath you in exchange for higher pay on your equipment. Just like I sold my little Checkmate ski boat, when we found a good deal on a Mastercraft. Now that I have sold it, it is no longer mine.

You and your buddies see the water starting to come over the sides of your sinking ship you want to jump into someone else's boat. It does not matter that it is not your boat - this is a matter of survival for some - honor and morality are forgotten as professionals claw eachother for driftwood to ensure their survival for another day.

The shame of it is, that it is not a fair fight. ALPA will not allow any "regional" pilot title to the flying they perform.

Things are taken when you are overwhelmed by a force much greater than you.

As I sit here in my RJ with the guns of mighty ALPA aimed at my bow we prepare to repel boarders, but there is nothing we can do. ALPA has stripped us of any power and the alter ego proliferation of carriers (encourageed by ALPA) has taken our swords.

Another point - why all the hysteria about NewCo? He11, their own MEC proposed NWA70. NewCo is the same thing with different pay rates and again the lifeboat fixing to get boarded belongs to Mesaba.

Thanks for playing along with us, in these hostile times, but jeesh, ALPA mainline has a really weird political perspective on realiity.

~~~^~~~

Fins,

You are right. You are. We did give away that flying--50 to 70 seats. Now we will try not to do it again. We would rather keep it and then make sure our furloughed pilots come back, and then maybe give you the chance to fly those planes bigger than 70 seats if you want. If you don't, then that is your choice. We learned our lesson I would say. So do you blame us now for "seeing the light" and now trying to keep it?


Bye bye--General Lee