Skywest and Aspen

[jetpig32]

The problem lies in transport category certification. Far 25.121 and 25.111 provide minimum climb gradients for engine inop TO and engine inop landing considerations. For a takeoff phase, ie loss at V1, a 2 engine ac must meed 2.4 gradient (Phase 2 & 3) and 2.1 (Phase 4, final climb) over terrain. In landing phase, ie engine out balked landing, it just has to meet 2.1 gradient climb, terrain not considered. If I understand Aerodata correctly, they just reflect this second fact in the MFPTW. Doesn't mean you will clear terrain, just means you will achieve a 2.1 gradient. Is it legal to fly into ASE in a 700, yes. Is it ultimatly safe, you decide. From what I understand, SKYW was the third airline approached to fly a CRJ-700 or 900 into ASE. (This goes back years) The first two refused.

 

[Dodge]

My very first time into ASE with the Avro was a right downwind/landing on 33. That was awesome. That being said, Mesaba had extra ground/sim training as well as two IOE trips to ASE before you were on your own. Day, night, cloudy, sunny, whatever. Most of the Mesaba ASE pilots were very senior, all hired in the 80's and 90's. ASE was never junior assigned to pilots.

As far as bagging one at V1, not an emergency in the Avro. Feet on the floor and continue to destination if fuel permits. As mentioned before, the reason that the 146/RJ85 is the superior ASE machine is the slow manuever speeds, autothrottles to keep the A/S contstant and the overall engine-out performance.

Good luck with the CR7 when the temps warm up to 10+ this spring. The Avro took a serious hit in the useful load category. If memory serves, something like only 20-25K lbs with a minimum of 16k lbs needed in fuel just to make it to MEM.

 

[BE20AV8R]

I find it incredibly inconsiderate and shallow of you naysayers to assume that you know the extent of the ASE qualification process, the FAA's willingness to endorse it, the capabilities of the CR7, and most importantly, the assumed lack of judgement and skills of the pilots...

I know better than to post on this message board, but as an ASE pilot and check-airman, I personally take offense to most of the above comments...

I flew in and out of ASE in the corporate world prior to SkyWest and vowed never to fly in and out of ASE again. In hindsight, I realized that I was being unfair to the training department of SkyWest and was making the same assumption as most of you that are. I thought that everyone that went into the most challenging airport (in terms of terrain and weather) was a "cowboy" with reckless corporate abandon. Having completed the sim training, flight qualifications, and flown in and out of there consistently for the last three months, I can safely say that I think that ASE is one of the safest operations that SkyWest has... Here's why...

The training is top-notch. When I qualified in the sim, I had the Fed who in conjunction with our extremely well qualified instructors and check-airmen developed the ASE program observing the training. As much as is possible, this is as conservative as can be in an environment like ASE. I'm certain that had he not been satisfied with the benchmarks, safeguards, procedures, and training involved, he'd not have signed his name to the ops specs.

The CR7 is an extremely capable aircraft. True enough, it has half as many engines as the 146 or rj85. The 777 has half as many engines as the 747 too... big deal! Regardless, the plane can flat out climb. A v2 climb at MLDW will consistently produce in excess of 3000fpm. I don't know anything about the other aircraft mentioned here and wouldn't pretend to as some of you do. I know that SkyWest has been flying to ASE for more than 8 months. To the best of my knowledge, there has been one balked landing. Evidently, the plane was nearly 14000 feet before making the extraction turn, no EGPWS warnings heard... Certainly capable.

Finally, let's all quit badmouthing the pilots. As a whole, I think the group of aviators who call ASE a second home are top-notch. Everyone that I have flown with has been the definition of a consiencious pilot and a consumate professional. I know that none of us want to auger it in and take a safe and conservative posture when evaluating our decisions towards ASE.

Why choose ASE? We all have our reasons I suppose... For me, I like the challenge that ASE presents. I got tired of the same old approaches to the midwest, I hold better schedules, etc.

Just one guy who actually knows what's ups opinion...

Talk amongst yourselves children...

 

[SSDD]

BE,

I gave up trying to give serious explanations a couple of pages back. Because to these guys, facts don't matter. What matters to most of these morons is that the Avro was a better airplane(it was), union pilots at Wisconsin and Mesaba are superior aviators, and you're a non-union scab. I mean a couple of guys have said that they would rather put their families in the back of a tired, old Mesa Dash 8, than on Skywest...go for it.

 

[bizzum]

I find it incredibly inconsiderate and shallow of you naysayers to assume that you know the extent of the ASE qualification process, the FAA's willingness to endorse it, the capabilities of the CR7, and most importantly, the assumed lack of judgement and skills of the pilots...

I know better than to post on this message board, but as an ASE pilot and check-airman, I personally take offense to most of the above comments...

I flew in and out of ASE in the corporate world prior to SkyWest and vowed never to fly in and out of ASE again. In hindsight, I realized that I was being unfair to the training department of SkyWest and was making the same assumption as most of you that are. I thought that everyone that went into the most challenging airport (in terms of terrain and weather) was a "cowboy" with reckless corporate abandon. Having completed the sim training, flight qualifications, and flown in and out of there consistently for the last three months, I can safely say that I think that ASE is one of the safest operations that SkyWest has... Here's why...

The training is top-notch. When I qualified in the sim, I had the Fed who in conjunction with our extremely well qualified instructors and check-airmen developed the ASE program observing the training. As much as is possible, this is as conservative as can be in an environment like ASE. I'm certain that had he not been satisfied with the benchmarks, safeguards, procedures, and training involved, he'd not have signed his name to the ops specs.

The CR7 is an extremely capable aircraft. True enough, it has half as many engines as the 146 or rj85. The 777 has half as many engines as the 747 too... big deal! Regardless, the plane can flat out climb. A v2 climb at MLDW will consistently produce in excess of 3000fpm. I don't know anything about the other aircraft mentioned here and wouldn't pretend to as some of you do. I know that SkyWest has been flying to ASE for more than 8 months. To the best of my knowledge, there has been one balked landing. Evidently, the plane was nearly 14000 feet before making the extraction turn, no EGPWS warnings heard... Certainly capable.

Finally, let's all quit badmouthing the pilots. As a whole, I think the group of aviators who call ASE a second home are top-notch. Everyone that I have flown with has been the definition of a consiencious pilot and a consumate professional. I know that none of us want to auger it in and take a safe and conservative posture when evaluating our decisions towards ASE.

Why choose ASE? We all have our reasons I suppose... For me, I like the challenge that ASE presents. I got tired of the same old approaches to the midwest, I hold better schedules, etc.

Just one guy who actually knows what's ups opinion...

Talk amongst yourselves children...

I do not think that its the 2 engine balked that is the question, it is the engine out balk that people are questioning. I, for one, could care less who is flying the airplane, and I do not remember anyone saying anything bad about skywest pilots or their operation, I don't understand why just because someone questions your operations, you take it as they are bashing skywest pilots and calling them scabs. Speaking for myself, I just simply wanted to know from your perspective, how the CR7 climbs if you had an engine out, and you have to execute a balked landing.

 

[SSDD]

Never mind.

 

[BE20AV8R]

I do not think that its the 2 engine balked that is the question, it is the engine out balk that people are questioning. I, for one, could care less who is flying the airplane, and I do not remember anyone saying anything bad about skywest pilots or their operation, I don't understand why just because someone questions your operations, you take it as they are bashing skywest pilots and calling them scabs. Speaking for myself, I just simply wanted to know from your perspective, how the CR7 climbs if you had an engine out, and you have to execute a balked landing.

Knock on wood, I can't tell you how it performs in real life. I can however speak for the sim and can say with certainty that the plane (sim) performs adequately enough to clear all obstacles and terrain. I have taken the sim, at MLDW, down to 50 feet, gone around, performed a windshear escape maneuver which in turn lead to a flameout and engine failure. This is pretty much the worst case scenario as many people have pointed out and, at least in the sim, lived to tell about it. I hope I never have to do this in reality, it's nice to know that the plane is capable of it though...

I'm not pimping my skills here, all I did was fly the profile as dictated by the company and aerodata and it worked as prescribed...

 

[Night_Flight]

Knock on wood...

Are you referring to the wood that Mesa crews bring with them on their overnights to sleep on?

I heard the following in CLT!
Controller...
US Airways 232, do you see the Air Shuttle-900 ahead and to your left?

US Airways Pilot...
Yeah, of course we see Mesa. Everyone watches out for those guys!

:uzi: MESA:smash:

 

[rtmcfi]

Knock on wood, I can't tell you how it performs in real life. I can however speak for the sim and can say with certainty that the plane (sim) performs adequately enough to clear all obstacles and terrain. I have taken the sim, at MLDW, down to 50 feet, gone around, performed a windshear escape maneuver which in turn lead to a flameout and engine failure. This is pretty much the worst case scenario as many people have pointed out and, at least in the sim, lived to tell about it. I hope I never have to do this in reality, it's nice to know that the plane is capable of it though...

I'm not pimping my skills here, all I did was fly the profile as dictated by the company and aerodata and it worked as prescribed...

I am glad to see that SkyWest has a single engine balked landing procedure. I was under the impresion that the disclaimer mentioned earlier was your only guidance. Do you happen to have a text version of the procedure? Does the SkyWest single-engine balked procedure call for a 130 kt turn? Thanks!

 

[SSDD]

I know that everyone wants to prove that we are not suicidal idiots, but I'd be carefull about posting the actual procedure. Suffice it to say that there are a number of carefully drawn out procedures for different situations.