SkyWest ALPA

[ReverseSensing]

The above quote about the first thread is the crux of my problem with union representation. The first thing to happen is a poisoning of the relationship with the company. If pilots don't feel resentment,fear, hate, disrespect, insecurity etc, then what do they need a union for. Unions like any other money making venture know that in order to convince people to pay for their services they must create demand. They do that by fostering all of the above emotions I mentioned above.

So at Skywest you don't get the feeling that any of those emotions are true. Skywest treats their employees fairly. People are fighting to get in there. People talk about how much they love it there. You don't see the preponderance of hate and discontent most other Union carriers contend with at Skywest. I just don't see where a union will make life better than it is. I do see them making it worse.

I think eventually you will see middle managers prefer to work with a pilot group under a CBA. It keeps them from having to make any difficult moral decisions. It keeps them from having to decide what the "right thing" is to do. They just do what the CBA says, and punch out at 5:00 p.m. That's why it is so important that the CBA spells out precisely how management will act in every conceiveable situation, because once the CBA is in effect, they cannot be trusted to do the right thing in an area of ambiguity, they will simply interpret the CBA to their (the company's) advantage and tell the pilot to pound sand and/or grieve it.

The difference between how management acts with or without a CBA is that without a CBA you ultimately have no protection against arbitrary and capricious actions of management except what you can personally bring to the table. With a CBA, you have the legal protection of the union against someone in management (however unlikely it might be) gunning for you.

 

[John Pennekamp]

If y'all need another reason to go union consider this recent event at ASA:

Last week, we had the company attempt to discipline a captain for refusing an airplane that had just landed with smoke in the cockpit and smoke in the lav. Maintenance inspected it, was unable to find the source of smoke, and assumed it had come from the toilet motor. Told him it had been serviced with blue juice and was now good to go. The captain called BS and told them he wasn't going until they definitively found the source of smoke, including inspecting the lav motor (which had not even been done) if they thought it was the problem. Before he knew it, the System Chief Pilot was on his cell phone threatening the captain if he didn't take the airplane. The captain refused and was pulled off line pending discipline.

ALPA raised hell and the captain did not recieve discipline. The union got the FAA involved at the national level. The union is preparing a safety memo describing the incident for the pilots.

Two days later, the same aircraft again had smoke while in revenue service. ALPA was there to protect and defend the pilot of that airplane too.

How would the "student council" union over at Skywest have handled it? Do you think they would have gone into a meeting with the System Chief Pilot and stood their ground under threat of termination? Yes, they can be terminated, they aren't protected by the RLA like ours are. That boosts our reps' effectiveness.

Think that won't happen over there? Think again... ASA is Skywest. Times are tight and pilot pushing is back. Who's going to protect your life, your pay, your licence and your family? A union afiliated with the AFL-CIO or a "student council" controlled by the company? Think about it.

 

[skyhogg]

So, what happens when the checks start coming in 10% short? Does the FBI storm the place and force them to write new checks? Do you think Bush is going to spend any 'political capitol' to hold their feet to the fire? No, ALPA would file a lawsuit. The RLA states that it's illegal, but that doesn't stop it from happening. The RLA just gives you a basis for a lawsuit, which you'd win, but it would take a lot of time and money.

Scott

Yes the RLA gives you a basis for a lawsuit, which we'd win. Yes it would take a lot of time and money, which we would have at our disposal if we were ALPA. What do we have now?

 

[theo]

If y'all need another reason to go union consider this recent event at ASA:

Last week, we had the company attempt to discipline a captain for refusing an airplane that had just landed with smoke in the cockpit and smoke in the lav. Maintenance inspected it, was unable to find the source of smoke, and assumed it had come from the toilet motor. Told him it had been serviced with blue juice and was now good to go. The captain called BS and told them he wasn't going until they definitively found the source of smoke, including inspecting the lav motor (which had not even been done) if they thought it was the problem. Before he knew it, the System Chief Pilot was on his cell phone threatening the captain if he didn't take the airplane. The captain refused and was pulled off line pending discipline.

ALPA raised hell and the captain did not recieve discipline. The union got the FAA involved at the national level. The union is preparing a safety memo describing the incident for the pilots.

Two days later, the same aircraft again had smoke while in revenue service. ALPA was there to protect and defend the pilot of that airplane too.

How would the "student council" union over at Skywest have handled it? Do you think they would have gone into a meeting with the System Chief Pilot and stood their ground under threat of termination? Yes, they can be terminated, they aren't protected by the RLA like ours are. That boosts our reps' effectiveness.

Think that won't happen over there? Think again... ASA is Skywest. Times are tight and pilot pushing is back. Who's going to protect your life, your pay, your licence and your family? A union afiliated with the AFL-CIO or a "student council" controlled by the company? Think about it.

You guys talk as if Skywest is some new airline that has never seen these types of controversies before. They have and they apparently handle them quite well. Otherwise you would find the prevailing sentiment regarding the company to be poor. In fact the opposite is true. The general sentiment in the company is that they LIKE it . Why should the divisivness that comes with the union be allowed in. Don't try to fix something that aint broke.

 

[skyhogg]

When some of the F/A's sued the company a couple years ago, the judge treated thier 'agreement' as legally binding. I don't see why the pilot 'agreement' would be any differnent in the eyes of that judge. It might depend on the judge in another case, but the precident is clear.

Scott

With what financial resources would you suggest the pilots sue to have their "agreement" viewed as legally binding by some sympathetic judge? ALPA would provide such resources

 

[skyhogg]

So, what happens if you file a grievance and the company ignores it and doesn't talk to the union? What happens when the three days pass and nothing has happened? You and ALPA file a lawsuit, which you'll eventually win.

You view your contract as if the omnificent hand of God will come down and smut managment if they deviate from the contract. That's simply not the case.

Scott

Scott

What are you talking about?

OMNISCIENT: Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.

SMITE:

1. <LI type=a>To inflict a heavy blow on, with or as if with the hand, a tool, or a weapon.
2. To drive or strike (a weapon, for example) forcefully onto or into something else.
3. To attack, damage, or destroy by or as if by blows.

Yes if the company deviates from a legal contract, we and ALPA will file a lawsuit to have the omniscient hand of God help us smite management to get them to hold up their end of the deal...

What do we do without ALPA?

 

[John Pennekamp]

You guys talk as if Skywest is some new airline that has never seen these types of controversies before. They have and they apparently handle them quite well. Otherwise you would find the prevailing sentiment regarding the company to be poor. In fact the opposite is true. The general sentiment in the company is that they LIKE it . Why should the divisivness that comes with the union be allowed in. Don't try to fix something that aint broke.

It seems to me that 49% of your pilots thought it was broke not too long ago. They can't all be wrong. I guess you call a 51% majority of pilots liking the company a "generally good sentiment"! :0

 

[Capi_Cafre']

The major airline pilots are the majority. Simply put the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.

It was 50 years or so of adhering to a principle a little more along the lines of "What hurts us one, hurts us all" that got ALPA to the point where it could pi$$ away a half-century of progress in 5 years with a "new school" attitude like yours as its guiding light.

 

[Illinois]

John,

Doubt this would have been an issue at Skywest Airlines, but the result would have been the same even if our system chief forgot the "safety first" motto.

I agree with most of the arguements for a union here, and will vote for representation again. Just don't try to get people fired up (no pun intended) over the situation at ASA. Skywest Inc. may own ASA, but ASA and Skywest Air. aren't synonymous yet!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It was 50 years or so of adhering to a principle a little more along the lines of "What hurts us one, hurts us all" that got ALPA to the point where it could pi$$ away a half-century of progress in 5 years with a "new school" attitude like yours as its guiding light.

I am only making an observation. Perhaps I didn't pontificate well or maybe you are trying to spin.

However, 50 years ago there were no RJ's or regional feed. There was mainline.

It is what it is. In these current times, everyone is trying to protect what is theirs. The by product? Divide and conquer. One should, nonethess ensure that they are proactionary and not reactionary.

I believe we should look at Brand scope, or even the next forward thinking idea. Problem is, I don't know what it is... perhaps another does...