SkyWest ALPA VARS Update

[Crizz]

As another former ASA guy I will cancel your vote.

Ha...

 

[iahawkeye]

Regional airlines under ALPA are only as strong as their MEC. If ALPA is voted in at Skywest it will be up to YOU to make what you want out of a contract. It is my own belief that this is a much better option than having managment have their own free will. Although many of you may have the mentality of " what has alpa ever done for me" I think that you are missing the main point. You will be in charge of your own contract. Many of you focus on pay, and I think this is just a fraction of what you could hope to have change if ALPA brought in to represent you. Skywest's work rules, vacation, and job security are a joke, among other things! Being from another regional whos MEC gave them an above average contract, (in regards to work rules) it pains me to see my friends at Skywest constantly pressured and abused by crew scheduling, chief pilots, and managment, as well as constantly being afraid for their job. I hope all of you will look at the big picture when deciding on this issue, and make an educated and informed decision before deciding to vote.

 

[txpilot1974]

Skywest's work rules, vacation, and job security are a joke, among other things!

If you say so chief.

 

[thebest]

And what do you think would have happened at those carriers had ALPA NOT been there? Management would have imposed whatever changes they wished and the pilots would not have had a say at all. Grow up.

You have a very weak argument.............

alpa mission statement:
The mission of the Air Line Pilots Association is to promote and champion all aspects of aviation safety throughout all segments of the aviation community; to represent, in both specific and general respects, the collective interests of all pilots in commercial aviation; to assist in collective bargaining activities on behalf of all pilots represented by the Association; to promote the health and welfare of the members of the Association before all governmental agencies; to be a strong, forceful advocate of the airline piloting profession, through all forms of media, and with the public at large; and to be the ultimate guardian and defender of the rights and privileges of the professional pilots who are members of the Association.
—ALPA Board of Directors, October 1992

"To be the ultimate guardian and defender of the rights and privilages of the professional pilots who are members of the Assc." What have they defended? Name an ALPA carrier that has or is going to take a paycut? I'd take the Alpa 2% and put it away for a rainy day.
What about the retiree's? Dontating to ALPA for YEARS only to have their retirements stripped from them, with NO explination or ANY help from alpa! ( $150,000 x 2% = $3000/year x 30years=$90,000) Now this money invested in a 401k for that time would have reached almost $400,000! Now think, what did alpa get me for retirment now that the SHI* hit the fan.....$0! I know lots of you say that alpa raised the bar pre 911. But raising the bar when money is FLOWING is not an accomplishment. What the real challange is, is to get you the money and quality of life when things get bad. That is the reason to HAVE a union...RIGHT! "Is alpa REALLY the defender of the rights and privileges of the professional {pilot}"...History has NOT proven so..........
alpa carrier or not, bankruptcy happened and all your pilot dues do NOTHING!
Now I am not a Skywesty, but alpa was not there for them and my buds say they are doing great? Explain...........
THEBEST

 

[bender]

AOPA offers similar legal and medical assistance for commercial and ATP rated pilots. The insurance that only ALPA has over AOPA, that I know of, is the loss-of-license/medical protection. If the management at Skywest ever got to the point of a TSA or Mesa then I would vote in a union, however management/employee relations are good. Unions can't provide protection to their members from market forces or bankruptcy. They can't save your job if you show up at the airport drunk. However, they can alienate and destroy 34 years of productive and healthy relations with management. If there's such a doom/gloom about being non-union, why is the majority of my new-hire class from unionized carriers? There's even a retired captain from a major ALPA-represented carrier....

I'll vote no until otherwise convinced.

 

[bender]

Skywest's work rules, vacation, and job security are a joke, among other things! Being from another regional whos MEC gave them an above average contract, (in regards to work rules) it pains me to see my friends at Skywest constantly pressured and abused by crew scheduling, chief pilots, and managment, as well as constantly being afraid for their job. I hope all of you will look at the big picture when deciding on this issue, and make an educated and informed decision before deciding to vote.

How's it feel to win the regional special olympics there Jetlinker? Please give a comparision between SKW and XJT so that you can back up your claim with actual facts.

 

[Ponchus pilot]

AOPA offers similar legal and medical assistance for commercial and ATP rated pilots. The insurance that only ALPA has over AOPA, that I know of, is the loss-of-license/medical protection. If the management at Skywest ever got to the point of a TSA or Mesa then I would vote in a union, however management/employee relations are good. Unions can't provide protection to their members from market forces or bankruptcy. They can't save your job if you show up at the airport drunk. However, they can alienate and destroy 34 years of productive and healthy relations with management. If there's such a doom/gloom about being non-union, why is the majority of my new-hire class from unionized carriers? There's even a retired captain from a major ALPA-represented carrier....

I'll vote no until otherwise convinced.

1) AOPA insurance and medial assistance not the same.
2) You cant even compare Skywest to TSA.
3) Mesa has better pay for larger AC and a contract with better work rules, ask a Mesa guy to show you their contract.
4) Jetlinkers airline (XJT) has far superior pay, benefits, and workrules than Skywest. If you know people that work there ask them for a copy of their contract.
5) Copies of many contracts are posted on the net, go study them and see the difference.
6) Skywest has an employee handbook and not a contract.
7) Union provides far more protection from market forces than no Union. There seems to be a myth out there that management can simply file for BK and abrogate the contract, its not that easy.
8) The argument you make about the majority of guys in newhire classes being from Union airlines is weak for a couple of reasons. First I have friends in the Skywest training dept and the majority of newhires are not from other airlines. Second, just as many pilots from ALPA regionals go to other ALPA regionals. You make it sound like its a rush for every pilot to go to Skywest. If that where true there would be not such a shortage of crews there.
9) Even if the one major guy said blah blah blah, It does not matter. In a union the majority rules and if the majority was uhappy there would be no ALPA.

Your info says that you are a CFI and your lack of info on the subject of airline unionism is evident. Try reading flying the line and fying the line 2, excellent books on this subject.

P.S. Being a bender is not a good thing.

 

[Ponchus pilot]

"To be the ultimate guardian and defender of the rights and privilages of the professional pilots who are members of the Assc." What have they defended? Name an ALPA carrier that has or is going to take a paycut? I'd take the Alpa 2% and put it away for a rainy day.
What about the retiree's? Dontating to ALPA for YEARS only to have their retirements stripped from them, with NO explination or ANY help from alpa! ( $150,000 x 2% = $3000/year x 30years=$90,000) Now this money invested in a 401k for that time would have reached almost $400,000! Now think, what did alpa get me for retirment now that the SHI* hit the fan.....$0! I know lots of you say that alpa raised the bar pre 911. But raising the bar when money is FLOWING is not an accomplishment. What the real challange is, is to get you the money and quality of life when things get bad. That is the reason to HAVE a union...RIGHT! "Is alpa REALLY the defender of the rights and privileges of the professional {pilot}"...History has NOT proven so..........
alpa carrier or not, bankruptcy happened and all your pilot dues do NOTHING!
Now I am not a Skywesty, but alpa was not there for them and my buds say they are doing great? Explain...........

So you want do math? lets try it

Delta top now = $200k
delta top pay before concession= $320k
320 - 200= $120k
400k/ 120k= 3.33 years

Let me see 400K in 30 years or 400k in 3.3 years. I would rather take the 3 years. DALPA had some really capable and smart people negotiating on behalf of their pilot group and I'm sure you werent one of them. Talk about weak arguments. Not a signle one of you ALPA bashers has pointed a single fact in your arguments. It's easy to talk $hit and be negative now, people forget rather quickly how it was a few years ago and without a union it would be even worse. Things always turn around.

 

[jea]

i flew with a guy the other day here- he didnt say hi my name is_____ how are you? he said "when were you hired? did you attend the alpa bbq? give me your email and address ill get you on the mailing list" i said no im not behind alpa- i get enough crap in the mail. i didnt argue with him- however- of all the guys and gals ive flown with- this guy was the only alpa nazi- and the least "sop" he didnt ask for a checklist- missed calls-he was pushing alpa for "our protection" do your job a$$hole that is protection- you should be disciplined- dont push your crap on me on the job... im working! after he was done i asked him about his flying experience, where he lived if he liked the area- you know all the stuff that should have come out in a normal conversation at first.... alpa protects pilots that maybe shouldnt be protected- like the senior instructors at colleges who shouldnt have jobs but are guaranteed to never loose it.

now feel free to rip on my grammar and punctuation. its 1:30 am im tired.

 

[sweptback]

AOPA offers similar legal and medical assistance for commercial and ATP rated pilots. The insurance that only ALPA has over AOPA, that I know of, is the loss-of-license/medical protection. If the management at Skywest ever got to the point of a TSA or Mesa then I would vote in a union, however management/employee relations are good. Unions can't provide protection to their members from market forces or bankruptcy. They can't save your job if you show up at the airport drunk. However, they can alienate and destroy 34 years of productive and healthy relations with management. If there's such a doom/gloom about being non-union, why is the majority of my new-hire class from unionized carriers? There's even a retired captain from a major ALPA-represented carrier....

I'll vote no until otherwise convinced.

AOPA medical assistance is a joke. I know, I used it. It's geared towards the weekend flyer who needs a third-class medical. The information they gave me was downright wrong and didn't help one bit.

 

[scarlet]

Enjoy working at Skywest if you don't vote ALPA in, rumor has it that the majors are looking at this and may join the fight to get Skywest to unionize for taking ASA airplanes and routes....

NAtional Scab list if you vote NO----

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Most of the new hires in my class are pretty anti-ALPA. Especially those who came from ALPA carriers (ASA, AirWIS, PCL, Mesaba, etc...).

Thanks for the burgers at the Candlewood, but I will vote NO.

Probabally the same guys who never went to a meeting or did anything except bitch while eating the "free" burgers. Stupid pilots, won't even help themselves while the ground is crumbling around them.
PBR

 

[Checklist]

Why do you think newhires are allowed to vote right out of the box? They are more likely to fall in line with what the company wants it's pilots to do.

Turkey Shoot are you happy at your alpa carrier? i thought not. Are you happy with your alpa contract? I thought not. Last question are you happy with your alpa scope? Ok lets vote in the union that will get us just as good a contract as TSA cant wait!

 

[rickair7777]

Enjoy working at Skywest if you don't vote ALPA in, rumor has it that the majors are looking at this and may join the fight to get Skywest to unionize for taking ASA airplanes and routes....

NAtional Scab list if you vote NO----

I have worked at alpa and non-alpa carriers...

I'm OK with the concept of a union, but everything I have seen of alpa specifically just screams useless corruption.

Your statement above is total BS, and you are a f*cking lying sack of sh*t. I assume this is representative of the way alpa operators do business? Anybody with the slightest clue about this industry knows that what you said is ludicrous...what are you trying to do, scare SKW newhires into voting yes? I doubt even the cfi's are that clueless...

Tool!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

i flew with a guy the other day here- he didnt say hi my name is_____ how are you? he said "when were you hired? did you attend the alpa bbq? give me your email and address ill get you on the mailing list" i said no im not behind alpa- i get enough crap in the mail. i didnt argue with him- however- of all the guys and gals ive flown with- this guy was the only alpa nazi- and the least "sop" he didnt ask for a checklist- missed calls-he was pushing alpa for "our protection" do your job a$$hole that is protection- you should be disciplined- dont push your crap on me on the job... im working! after he was done i asked him about his flying experience, where he lived if he liked the area- you know all the stuff that should have come out in a normal conversation at first.... alpa protects pilots that maybe shouldnt be protected- like the senior instructors at colleges who shouldnt have jobs but are guaranteed to never loose it.

now feel free to rip on my grammar and punctuation. its 1:30 am im tired.

One would be hard pressed to find any grammar in your rant at all. It is just a jumbled mess of random thoughts that make little sense.

 

[atrdriver]

i flew with a guy the other day here- he didnt say hi my name is_____ how are you? he said "when were you hired? did you attend the alpa bbq? give me your email and address ill get you on the mailing list" i said no im not behind alpa- i get enough crap in the mail. i didnt argue with him- however- of all the guys and gals ive flown with- this guy was the only alpa nazi- and the least "sop" he didnt ask for a checklist- missed calls-he was pushing alpa for "our protection" do your job a$$hole that is protection- you should be disciplined- dont push your crap on me on the job... im working! after he was done i asked him about his flying experience, where he lived if he liked the area- you know all the stuff that should have come out in a normal conversation at first.... alpa protects pilots that maybe shouldnt be protected- like the senior instructors at colleges who shouldnt have jobs but are guaranteed to never loose it.

now feel free to rip on my grammar and punctuation. its 1:30 am im tired.

Wow. I flew with a guy the other day that was an anti-ALPA nazi. All he did was bash ALPA, the volunteers, the contract, and everything else remotely assiciated with a union. And he couldn't fly worth a crap. Had to take the airplane from him twice, but when he gets written up that union that he hates will still defend him.

 

[Checklist]

1) AOPA insurance and medial assistance not the same.
2) You cant even compare Skywest to TSA.
3) Mesa has better pay for larger AC and a contract with better work rules, ask a Mesa guy to show you their contract.
4) Jetlinkers airline (XJT) has far superior pay, benefits, and workrules than Skywest. If you know people that work there ask them for a copy of their contract.
5) Copies of many contracts are posted on the net, go study them and see the difference.
6) Skywest has an employee handbook and not a contract.
7) Union provides far more protection from market forces than no Union. There seems to be a myth out there that management can simply file for BK and abrogate the contract, its not that easy.
8) The argument you make about the majority of guys in newhire classes being from Union airlines is weak for a couple of reasons. First I have friends in the Skywest training dept and the majority of newhires are not from other airlines. Second, just as many pilots from ALPA regionals go to other ALPA regionals. You make it sound like its a rush for every pilot to go to Skywest. If that where true there would be not such a shortage of crews there.
9) Even if the one major guy said blah blah blah, It does not matter. In a union the majority rules and if the majority was uhappy there would be no ALPA.

Your info says that you are a CFI and your lack of info on the subject of airline unionism is evident. Try reading flying the line and fying the line 2, excellent books on this subject.

P.S. Being a bender is not a good thing.

The beauty of the internet, you can lie through your teeth and some ignorant person will still believe you.

1. Seen MESA'S Contract nice try bub
2. Not a single pilot ever furloughed at skywest (IF you ask me that’s terrible job security)
3. Your "Buddies” in the training dept are lying to you because 80-90% of the new hires are former 121
4. Lets not forget that if a union is voted in, Skywest starts negotiations from zero, not from where we are at now.

I am not against unions i just don's see how alpa could possibly do any good here.
As a side note my favorite lie in the above rant is how MESA has better pay, benefits and work rules. Almost fell out of my chair. Now don’t let your mom catch you up to late while your living in her basement son.

 

[MYFpilot]

The beauty of the internet, you can lie through your teeth and some ignorant person will still believe you.


2. Not a single pilot ever furloughed at skywest (IF you ask me that’s terrible job security)

Actually I was, kind-of... I was Hired by SkyWest back in 2003 and given a "tentative" class date a month or so later. Well I sat in the "Hiring Pool" for almost exactly a year awaiting a firm class date, with only the occasional "we'll let you know" email. All this while pilots from Continental Express and United who were given job offers after me, all were given class dates and put through training ahead of me. (and from what was happening at the time, most rightly so). ALPA seemed to be looking out for the furloughed pilots at those respective airlines. I wonder If I was ever furloughed from SkyWest "again", would SkyWest do the same for me?

 

[Ponchus pilot]

I am not against unions i just don's see how alpa could possibly do any good here.
As a side note my favorite lie in the above rant is how MESA has better pay, benefits and work rules. Almost fell out of my chair. Now don’t let your mom catch you up to late while your living in her basement son.

Mesa Does have better pay for the 90 seater. Also, note that they signed a contract post 9/11. You have not read their contract I'm sure. Whatever it is, its a contract and not an employee manual. Even if it was true that many newhires are from other carriers this does not mean that they are there because of ALPA. Just as many ex- ALPA pilots are getting hired at other ALPA represented regionals. The fact that no-one has ever been furloughed at skywest has nothing to do with having a union, it also does not mean that skywest will never furlough. You are also wrong on starting negotiations from zero, that is contrary to the RLA. If you unionized and your management tried to offer you less just because you have voted in a union then they will truely show their color. Hold on to that chair bub.

 

[ASApuppy]

How many people actually benefit from the medical and legal parts of ALPA? I bet you the majority of ALPA pilots never use either.

ALPA legal saved my certificate, job, and completely buried a mistake we made several years ago. I was absolutely amazed at how responsive, prompt, and efficient the whole affair went.

Like others have mention, if nothing else, this is the simply the best, tax-detuctable, insurance policy we as professional pilots can buy. Bar none!

 

[thebest]

So you want do math? lets try it

Delta top now = $200k
delta top pay before concession= $320k
320 - 200= $120k
400k/ 120k= 3.33 years

Let me see 400K in 30 years or 400k in 3.3 years. I would rather take the 3 years. DALPA had some really capable and smart people negotiating on behalf of their pilot group and I'm sure you werent one of them. Talk about weak arguments. Not a signle one of you ALPA bashers has pointed a single fact in your arguments. It's easy to talk $hit and be negative now, people forget rather quickly how it was a few years ago and without a union it would be even worse. Things always turn around.

Ok, top Delta pilot took a 120k loss per year. It WOULD have taken him 3.3 years to get back 400k if he had an extra 120k /year around for the next three years. All right great! So now,ok get ready for more math-he took about 37.5% paycut. SO alpa LOST 400k for this pilot in 3.3 years and my way GAINED 400k in 30 years! Hey if you want to LOSE 120k/year you can take it genius!
Now you want some facts? OK, open your ears becuase when the pilots LOST their pensions ALPA DID NOTHING! Another? If you had invested your 2% aplo dues you would have had around 400k in 30 years!
Keep em comin' THEBEST

 

[ASApuppy]

[4. Lets not forget that if a union is voted in, Skywest starts negotiations from zero, not from where we are at now.

[/quote]


I believe you are very wrong my friend. If elect in, STATUS QUO must exist until an agreement is reached. This is the law according to the RLA. Your current work rules and compensation must remain the same as you negotiate. Both sides start with their openers and you go from there. I don't believe your management will drag it out for over 4 years though. Too much bad PR.

 

[rickair7777]

Mesa Does have better pay for the 90 seater. Also, note that they signed a contract post 9/11. You have not read their contract I'm sure. Whatever it is, its a contract and not an employee manual. .

Absolute BS. Mesa hourly rates mean NOTHING because mesa pilots DO NOT GET PAID for most of their duty time! (I know, I worked there once).

The mesa contract is the most poorly written joke in the industry, every other sentence is "to the extent possible" or "at the discretion of the company"...well guess what, it's NEVER possible, and the company uses their discretion to not pay you and not give you days off...

Get your facts straight, MAG alpa is a joke, and if you're trying to sell me on alpa by telling me what a great deal MESA has, well you just blew it.
With "facts" like these, you're either a drooling moron or a lying con-artist...are you representative of what alpa can do for me?

Remember at least 50% of SKW new hires came from alpa carriers...you can't make up a fantasy and expect them to buy it...

 

[doug_or]

Your "Buddies” in the training dept are lying to you because 80-90% of the new hires are former 121

Maybe on the jet, but not overall and certainly not on the Bro.

 

[pookie]

I wonder who knows more, the new hire or the SkyWest pilot thats been there for more than 2 years? 80% of the pilots who have been at the company a long period of time are voting in a union...why dont you people learn from your colleagues instead of drinking the kool aid.

On another note, mesa pilots voted for the TA and not ALPA national. Blame ALPA but you guys at mesa voted for the recent contract. The sad thing is that when the contract at Mesa was voted, it was the new hires who supported it. Now the same new hires are going to vote and when they become senior at skywest, they will be the first to complain about the pay.

I have a buddy who got fired at skywest for posting on these forums, did you know that you can get fired for any reason? Does that not scare you. I know many people that have been canned at skywest where at other carriers, alpa would have fought for your job. Dont say it wont happen to you because management is nice and fair.

I dont work at skywest but if i was a newbie there, i would vote alpa just for the protection.

 

[CFIT]

[4. Lets not forget that if a union is voted in, Skywest starts negotiations from zero, not from where we are at now.

I believe you are very wrong my friend. If elect in, STATUS QUO must exist until an agreement is reached. This is the law according to the RLA. Your current work rules and compensation must remain the same as you negotiate. Both sides start with their openers and you go from there. I don't believe your management will drag it out for over 4 years though. Too much bad PR.[/quote]







Yes and No. Until a new contract is ratified the present agreement is enforced. That being said North American Airlines was able to reduce compensation packages prior to contract ratification due to operational/financial necessity. So yes, labor is not protected, the company wins. As far as contract negotiations go, the company is going to open with a huge reduction in compensation and and reduced work rules. The contract starts with a clean sheet of paper and everything, all of it is negotiated. All of it starts out with the company and ALPA miles apart. Pay, insurance, schedules, vacation, the company is going to come out swinging and they will spare no expense to win, plus they have time on their side.

I can't wait, a reduction of pay to give Duane his half million compensation package, years of prolonged negotiations, possibly ending up with less (most first contracts historicallysuck). Ya sign me up, can't wait to wear my shiny new pin.

 

[planesrcool]

:beer: well here we go again, the skywest onion drive. they try this every year always gets shot down. will get shot down again. there are to many people at skwest who like not having the onion around............. and to many new comers for say asa who haven't gotten anywhere with the onion for say ........oh the supense is killing me 4 yrs yeah thats it. in case u wondering why i call it the onion .......... well you get the picture vote no as always and you can try again next year...... smile now or cry later

 

[Peter Griffin]

I have a buddy who got fired at skywest for posting on these forums, did you know that you can get fired for any reason?

HA. Name? I REALLY hope you were trying to be funny because I would NEVER believe it. If he/she DID get fired, Im sure it had nothing to do with FI.

 

[Ponchus pilot]

Now you want some facts? OK, open your ears becuase when the pilots LOST their pensions ALPA DID NOTHING! Another? If you had invested your 2% aplo dues you would have had around 400k in 30 years!

Have you heard of the pension reform ACT? Same crap was said in the 80's about contract abrogation and BK laws. ALPA lobbied and that changed too. $hit happens and we learn and go forward. Overall we all do better when we are together. You are the exact kind of guy who never shows up to the meeting to ask qustions. Typical pesimist and negative type, the glass is always half empty. You pobably dont even fly for an Airline.

 

[thebest]

Have you heard of the pension reform ACT? Same crap was said in the 80's about contract abrogation and BK laws. ALPA lobbied and that changed too. $hit happens and we learn and go forward. Overall we all do better when we are together. You are the exact kind of guy who never shows up to the meeting to ask qustions. Typical pesimist and negative type, the glass is always half empty. You pobably dont even fly for an Airline.

What pension reform act? This one http://hr.cch.com/news/pension/112805a.asp the one voted in by the us senate 97/2. You need to be more specific and give examples. SHOW ME! I can't find anywhere that says what alpo did. Even if they did, it was too little too late...they story of alpo in one sentence!
As alpa says from their website......" the ultimate guardian and defender of the rights and privileges of the professional pilots who are members of the Association." Answer me this, what are they REALLY guarding? Not holding up to their name AGAIN!
As far as me, if you can't beat em call them poopy pants and run to mommy! THEBEST