Skybus

[HA25]

This is classic.. Airtran captains now calling Skybus the same thing that they were themselves being called by DAL and others only a few years ago.

This alone solidifies my resolve.. this profession is all about "what's mine" but peoples memories are short, and they forget where they came from.

 

[ualdriver]

You are kidding us with that question right?

If you can spell economics you might be able to piece it together.....

No, the two of you "experts" need to piece that together for me. Show me where taxpayer money was used to bail out UAL. Now, if your argument that bond and stock INVESTORS in UAL lost money, then I would agree. That's the risk one takes as an investor in anything- the risk of default. Taxpayers with no stake in UAL? Nope, sorry. Not yet, if ever.

 

[HA25]

No, the two of you "experts" need to piece that together for me. Show me where taxpayer money was used to bail out UAL. Now, if your argument that bond and stock INVESTORS in UAL lost money, then I would agree. That's the risk one takes as an investor in anything- the risk of default. Taxpayers with no stake in UAL? Nope, sorry. Not yet, if ever.

First off, Are you aware of the loans and grands that UAL got after 9/11? Who do you think paid for them? And what are they worth now?

Secondly, after a Ch 11 filing, a corporation (unlike a private individual) is resolved of any taxes owed to the Federal Government.. do you know how much UAL owed? I don't but I can tell you it wasn't a small amount.

 

[BSkin]

I'm gonna catch crap for this but if I was out of work and looking I'd give it a go to keep my family fed.

Most of the people throwing crap at these guys are working for airlines that have been in business pushing 80 years. SOMEBODY blazed the trail for them.

Gup

Won't give you crap, just a thought. You would sacrifice for the family for a short term, knowing that your move may screw you for the rest of your career? Go to work for a company that has no union, $hitty pay, lose respect of your peers, etc. I could've stayed with my old company and be making just about the same as an Airbus CA at Skybus as a CA on the 1900. That company was non-union and, well, won't go into it. Just hope for those that have gone there that the airline survives because that on your resume is not going far!

 

[PCL_128]

First off, Are you aware of the loans and grands that UAL got after 9/11? Who do you think paid for them? And what are they worth now?

You're completely ignorant about what you're talking about. The ATSB denied UAL's loan requests. Despite the fact that UAL lost two airplanes and many great employees on that horrible day, the scumbag Bush administration engineered a corrupt system that denied them their loan requests. Get your facts straight.

 

[HA25]

You're completely ignorant about what you're talking about. The ATSB denied UAL's loan requests. Despite the fact that UAL lost two airplanes and many great employees on that horrible day, the scumbag Bush administration engineered a corrupt system that denied them their loan requests. Get your facts straight.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39335

it's all in the intent, and UAL is but one of many that took money.. I only used them as an example. All evaded taxes after BK however.

 

[HA25]

Won't give you crap, just a thought. You would sacrifice for the family for a short term, knowing that your move may screw you for the rest of your career? Go to work for a company that has no union, $hitty pay, lose respect of your peers, etc. I could've stayed with my old company and be making just about the same as an Airbus CA at Skybus as a CA on the 1900. That company was non-union and, well, won't go into it. Just hope for those that have gone there that the airline survives because that on your resume is not going far!

by the same tolken, if Skybus maks money, and their pilots eventually have a union and better pay that AirTran, what should Skybus pilots think?

cuts both ways..

btw... when was the union voted onto the property at AirTran? What about those guys hired before it, are they scabs (Besides the obvious ones that is)?

 

[ualdriver]

First of all, I'm annoyed because a stupid pop-up ad just dumped everything I typed after I wasted 20 minutes running over some 10-K filings from 2002 and 2003 which confirmed my suspicions.

Second, then PCL128 steals my thunder

Third, the link you quoted was concerning an ATSB loan that we didn't get.

Fourth..........

First off, Are you aware of the loans and grands that UAL got after 9/11? Who do you think paid for them? And what are they worth now?

We received a grant. No loans. So did every other airline out there. The Feds thought it would be better to help the airlines out or face almost their entire airline industry in bankruptcy.


Secondly, after a Ch 11 filing, a corporation (unlike a private individual) is resolved of any taxes owed to the Federal Government.. do you know how much UAL owed? I don't but I can tell you it wasn't a small amount.

Yes, I can tell you how much we owed the federal government at that time. Zero. Nada. Zilch. We had tax carry-forwards due to the substantial losses we endured after 9/11. It's in our March '03 10-K filing/annual report. In fact, in the narrative it states that it will take many years of profits to even realize the tax advantages of those carry-forwards. In fact, I'm almost certain we're still burning through them.

Fifth, the original statement I contested was the fact that you stated we wiped out most of our debt with the help of the taxpayer, and that is utterly untrue. We wiped most of our debt by screwing over bond holders and share holders, who assume risk when they make such an investment. Unfortunately, they were on the wrong side of that deal.

 

[HA25]

Fifth, the original statement I contested was the fact that you stated we wiped out most of our debt with the help of the taxpayer, and that is utterly untrue. We wiped most of our debt by screwing over bond holders and share holders, who assume risk when they make such an investment. Unfortunately, they were on the wrong side of that deal.

ok, what ever makes you feel good.

here, lets see if ALPA agrees with you..

http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/09/07/corporate-bankruptcy-laws-unfair-need-to-be-overhauled/

 

[HA25]

PCL, answer me this one question.. just one.

How is what Skybus does.. Fly CMH to where ever.. any different in terms of undercutting wages than AirTran flying from ATL to anywhere where DAL also has a hub and has to compete with your lower wages, forcing them to drop theirs..

In other words, how does Skybus with it's sliver of a market in a non-hub airport do more harm, than big old AirTran does to DAL? Why should any member of DALPA not think the scum of the earth of you?

 

[BSkin]

by the same tolken, if Skybus maks money, and their pilots eventually have a union and better pay that AirTran, what should Skybus pilots think?

cuts both ways..

btw... when was the union voted onto the property at AirTran? What about those guys hired before it, are they scabs (Besides the obvious ones that is)?

Not trying to argue, just saying my uneducated thoughts.

As far as when the NPA was started, had to be atleast 6 or 7 years ago, not sure, only been here four.

Yes, there are scabs here, fewer each year as they retire. For example, I was hired less than 4 years ago and am already in the top 50% seniority. I had a "scab" instruct me during upgrade. Great guy and would take me many pages to inform why he is a scab. Held out for 6 mos. at Eastern then told to go back and got F-ed by ALPA.

 

[HA25]

Fifth, the original statement I contested was the fact that you stated we wiped out most of our debt with the help of the taxpayer, and that is utterly untrue. We wiped most of our debt by screwing over bond holders and share holders, who assume risk when they make such an investment. Unfortunately, they were on the wrong side of that deal.

I'll spell it out more specifically in terms of the BK for you..

Every share holder of UAL, that lost his shares now has a Tax write off on that share.. That is tax credit for those share holders and tax liability to the treasury. Do you really think that a large company filing BK in the US, has no effect on tax income to the federal government?

American is the only company (I'm proud to say) besides WN, and a small handful of also rans... that's NEVER filed BK.. BK is not a good thing, and when people do it they're frowned upon, how is it better when a company does it?

 

[PCL_128]

How is what Skybus does.. Fly CMH to where ever.. any different in terms of undercutting wages than AirTran flying from ATL to anywhere where DAL also has a hub and has to compete with your lower wages, forcing them to drop theirs..

In other words, how does Skybus with it's sliver of a market in a non-hub airport do more harm, than big old AirTran does to DAL? Why should any member of DALPA not think the scum of the earth of you?

Top SNB payrate:

DAL: $151/hr
AAI: $153/hr

In other words, AAI isn't undercutting anyone. Not to mention that our contract has been amendable for 3 years and will soon see massive improvements. DALPA pilots certainly have reason to criticize the old-timers around here who agreed to wages that undercut them back in '99, however. Of course, very few pilots at this company were around back then, so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to even think about it. If we approve a contract next year that doesn't raise the bar, then I fully expect the DAL pilots to treat us like scum, and we'd deserve it. I don't foresee that happening.

 

[ualdriver]

ok, what ever makes you feel good.

here, lets see if ALPA agrees with you..

http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/09/07/corporate-bankruptcy-laws-unfair-need-to-be-overhauled/

It's not what makes me "feel good" FMS. It's what is true. When you post BS about how the taxpayer bailed us out by somehow funding billions of dollars of our debt- well that's just factually wrong. If you're going to bash UAL, at least get your facts straight.

The article you link just shows that we took massive paycuts while our executives enriched themselves. Yeah, thanks for that. I had no idea.

 

[PCL_128]

btw... when was the union voted onto the property at AirTran? What about those guys hired before it, are they scabs (Besides the obvious ones that is)?

The ATPA and the NPA were both in place before the ValueJet and AirTran merger. Both companies were union almost from the get-go.

 

[HA25]

It's not what makes me "feel good" FMS. It's what is true. When you post BS about how the taxpayer bailed us out by somehow funding billions of dollars of our debt- well that's just factually wrong. If you're going to bash UAL, at least get your facts straight.

The article you link just shows that we took massive paycuts while our executives enriched themselves. Yeah, thanks for that. I had no idea.

You seriously think that all the airlines that filed BK, held out for Grants and/or loans, and tapped into the pension guarantee weren't a drain on tax payers? Not to mention left thousands of people with no retirements so they are at risk of being a drain on the public in terms of social services.. Does UAL live in a vacuum?

Wow..

 

[PCL_128]

You seriously think that all the airlines that filed BK, held out for Grants and/or loans, and tapped into the pension guarantee weren't a drain on tax payers? Not to mention left thousands of people with no retirements so they are at risk of being a drain on the public in terms of social services.. Does UAL live in a vacuum?

Wow..

Who gives a flying fu&* if there was a drain on tax revenue due to the legacy bankruptcies? That has nothing to do with the pilots. You wanna complain about that? Point your finger at management. They, and they alone, are solely responsible for the mismanagement that led them into Chapter 11. This isn't about what management has done. This discussion is about what pilots are doing. And specifically, what pilots are doing to other pilots. I can't help what management does to screw over the taxpayer. I can, however, control my own behavior in not undercutting my fellow pilots and harming the profession. Your discussion of taxpayer dollars and UAL is simply a red herring to deflect attention from the fact that you think it's ok to stab your fellow pilots in the back to get ahead. Nobody's buying it.

 

[ualdriver]

I'll spell it out more specifically in terms of the BK for you..

Every share holder of UAL, that lost his shares now has a Tax write off on that share.. That is tax credit for those share holders and tax liability to the treasury. Do you really think that a large company filing BK in the US, has no effect on tax income to the federal government?

Yeah, so what? The government giveth and the government taketh away when it comes to dividends and capital gains associated with the losses/gains shareholders incur while investing. To say that some investors made a bad investment in UAL and therefore the taxpayer bailed out billions in UAL debt because now they have a capital loss instead of a capital gain on their tax returns is ridiculous.

And it's not a tax credit, it's a tax deduction for most people- there's a big difference.

American is the only company (I'm proud to say) besides WN, and a small handful of also rans... that's NEVER filed BK.. BK is not a good thing, and when people do it they're frowned upon, how is it better when a company does it?

Great for American. I am happy they didn't get screwed over as badly as we did.

 

[HA25]

I'll spell it out more specifically in terms of the BK for you..

Every share holder of UAL, that lost his shares now has a Tax write off on that share.. That is tax credit for those share holders and tax liability to the treasury. Do you really think that a large company filing BK in the US, has no effect on tax income to the federal government?

Yeah, so what? The government giveth and the government taketh away when it comes to dividends and capital gains associated with the losses/gains shareholders incur while investing. To say that some investors made a bad investment in UAL and therefore the taxpayer bailed out billions in UAL debt because now they have a capital loss instead of a capital gain on their tax returns is ridiculous.

And it's not a tax credit, it's a tax deduction for most people- there's a big difference.

American is the only company (I'm proud to say) besides WN, and a small handful of also rans... that's NEVER filed BK.. BK is not a good thing, and when people do it they're frowned upon, how is it better when a company does it?

Great for American. I am happy they didn't get screwed over as badly as we did.

more government / tax payer bailout.. forgot this golden nugget..

http://www.thetravelinsider.info/2005/unitedpileofmoney.htm

 

[HA25]

Top SNB payrate:

DAL: $151/hr
AAI: $153/hr

In other words, AAI isn't undercutting anyone. Not to mention that our contract has been amendable for 3 years and will soon see massive improvements. DALPA pilots certainly have reason to criticize the old-timers around here who agreed to wages that undercut them back in '99, however. Of course, very few pilots at this company were around back then, so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to even think about it. If we approve a contract next year that doesn't raise the bar, then I fully expect the DAL pilots to treat us like scum, and we'd deserve it. I don't foresee that happening.

dude, now you're loosing credibility..

DAL, after contract 2000 was earning A LOT more than that.. but it was a bit hard to keep those wages up when the likes of AirTran, Southwest, and others were raking in profits and expanding with their "under cutting labor" so OF COURSE they took the deep pay cuts to keep their airlines afloat..

In the end, you (or your pears) were flying a 737 and 717 for far less than that Delta pilot was flying his 737 and 717. I was in ATL, and I remember the infighting..

How are you any different? Pot, meet kettle..

 

[HA25]

Ty Webb vs General Lee...

need I say more?

 

[ualdriver]

You seriously think that all the airlines that filed BK, held out for Grants and/or loans, and tapped into the pension guarantee weren't a drain on tax payers? Not to mention left thousands of people with no retirements so they are at risk of being a drain on the public in terms of social services.. Does UAL live in a vacuum?

The problem with you FMS is that you get most of your information from this forum, and most of the time, the information is speculation and conjecture. I'll say it again.........the taxpayer did not bail out United Airlines. Period. We received a grant in the post 9/11 times. We did not recieve a loan from the taxpayer. The PBGC is currently not funded with taxpayer money.

No, we don't live in a vacuum- we just weren't bailed out by the taxpayers. I have no clue what your problem is, but if you're going to bash United, there's plenty of factual ways you could do so. You just haven't come up with any yet on this thread. Good Night.

 

[HA25]

UAL.. read my link on the pension..

Also, this article (I get most of my info from real news actually) leads me to believe that VA is your real undercuttes since they are DIRECTLY competing with you, while Skybus is going after a different market.

sell to the masses, live with the classes... Walmart proved that works.

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/S...=1173353157412&path=!business&s=1037645507703

The evolution of Spirit provides a clear illustration of the industry trend, as the onetime nondescript discount carrier has remade itself into an ultracheap carrier with fares as low as a penny designed to get people on airplanes -- and then sell travelers additional goods and services

from the snippet above, looks like the Skybus model is making inroads.. Spirit, an ALPA carrier is re-making itself into a Skybus.

 

[HA25]

hot off the press...

http://www.sun-herald.com/Newsstory.cfm?pubdate=101907&story=tp8ch4.htm&folder=NewsArchive2

 

[temcgrew]

from the snippet above, looks like the Skybus model is making inroads.. Spirit, an ALPA carrier is re-making itself into a Skybus.

And Thus is the problem with SKYBUS.

 

[BSkin]

dude, now you're loosing credibility..

DAL, after contract 2000 was earning A LOT more than that.. but it was a bit hard to keep those wages up when the likes of AirTran, Southwest, and others were raking in profits and expanding with their "under cutting labor" so OF COURSE they took the deep pay cuts to keep their airlines afloat..

In the end, you (or your pears) were flying a 737 and 717 for far less than that Delta pilot was flying his 737 and 717. I was in ATL, and I remember the infighting..

How are you any different? Pot, meet kettle..

So exactly when was the Delta pilot flying the 717?

 

[PCL_128]

dude, now you're loosing credibility..

Coming from a wannabe Skybus whore, that doesn't mean much to me...

How are you any different? Pot, meet kettle..

Because I, and a majority of this pilot group, wasn't here for any of that. The majority of this pilot group was hired after 9/11 and the paycuts at the legacies. You're absolutely right that the pay at places like AirTran, SWA, and Spirit prior to 9/11 caused the concessions at the legacies to be as deep as they were. But most of the pilots at this company weren't here to be a part of that, so it isn't relevant today. But by you admitting that that's exactly what took place, you should recognize that you don't want to be a part of that in the next downcycle. If Skybus does stay in business (highly doubtful), then their payrates will become the targets of management and bankruptcy courts during the next downturn. You wanna be the cause of your friends at AMR having to take a huge paycut in a few years at the next downturn? Have at it. I hope they spit on you as they walk past you in the terminal. You obviously know better, so you have no excuse to undercut your fellow pilots like this. Skybus whores are nothing but pseudo-scabs. They haven't actually crossed a picket line, but they might as well have.

 

[oceandude]

Got get the type and some time. Then go do contract work and make big bucks! People all over the world are hurting for bus drivers. I am personally done with aviation in the U.S. It makes me sick to my stomach! Everyone has just turned into a bunch a crying little beaches! There are other things out there expand your horizons and stop all the freaking hate!! I have never seen such a bunch of negative people!

 

[redbook]

Got get the type and some time. Then go do contract work and make big bucks! People all over the world are hurting for bus drivers. I am personally done with aviation in the U.S. It makes me sick to my stomach! Everyone has just turned into a bunch a crying little beaches! There are other things out there expand your horizons and stop all the freaking hate!! I have never seen such a bunch of negative people!

And that is what happens when you work at Gojet.

Good luck in Bangladesh and be positive!

 

[ironspud]

I hope they spit on you as they walk past you in the terminal. You obviously know better, so you have no excuse to undercut your fellow pilots like this. Skybus whores are nothing but pseudo-scabs. They haven't actually crossed a picket line, but they might as well have.

People should also spit on folks that pay an airline so they can play copilot.