Skills needed to be an A&P

[no1pilot2000]

I am interested in becoming an A&P mechanic. What kinds of math, English, or science skills does a person need to become an aircraft mechanic?

 

[cherry20's]

Mechanical skills would be important, some common sense, a little bit of math. Thats what calculators are for though.

 

[GravityHater]

need to be able to read well, as in: interpret manuals and things like ADs written by attorneys. Being competant with triple inverse negatives is a plus.
"...does NOT apply in the case of xxxx EXCEPT WHEN abcde, in which case is OTHERWISE is excluded...."

need to be able to foresee outcomes for each choice made especially with regard to liability.

 

[Gatorman]

COMMON SENSE
I have worked with some exceptionally smart people over the years that turn into complete retards when they have a wrench in their hand because they have no common sense. Most of those people have quickly advanced into management or sales.

SKILLS
Most of them are learned, but you must be able to look at a situation and not only see it as a problem but know how to fix where it will not happen again.

LOVE
You have got to love aviation. It will be something that will consume your life. You will not be able to get away from it. Throught the good times and the bad times. The hours are long and the pay is low.

AIDS
Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome
If you are married or become married - Aivation may cause problems in the marriage.

 

[IFIxUmUBrakeUm]

Dont do it!!! fix a car it pays better!!

 

[Weasel Keeper]

Go ahead and do it!!!

Someday soon these folks who hate their jobs will quit or retire and it will all be yours!

A good skill to learn is reading a schematic and blueprints. A little electical background definately helps.

Math skills help, but like said above, we all have calculators.

ENGLISH! helps a lot! Reading comprehension and being able to understand maintenance manuals...even a monkey could work on planes.

If you go to an A&P school, all of this will be taught. Like Gator said...biggest thing is common sence and a mechanical aptitude.

And when you do get your A&P, please don't come on here and whine. Either you like working on aircraft...or you don't.

Good luck!

 

[PreRVSM]

get a real job... a non-aviation job... maybe work on a motor home
Just find a job with a that will last till you get old.

 

[avbug]

In my opinion, the most important skillset is being serious about your job. That trumps every other aspect of what you do. I've seen far too many mechanics who consistantly violated regulations, took shortcuts, or believed that what isn't seen can't hurt. It can. Recent high-profile events such as the Alaska Airlines crash or the Sabretech/Valuejet debacle go to show that it goes on at all levels in the industry.

Attention to detail, constantly and with great vigilence, the ability to go slowly and to repeat things that need the extra attention, the patience to not rush, and the firm understanding that you put not only ink on papwer when you sign something off, but your reputation, your livliehood, and your life's work. Taking your job seriously means refusing to compromise, refusing to bend to pressure, and holding approved standards as paramount in your priorities, is very, very important.

 

[SpoilerFault]

Once again, Avbug sums it up perfect!

 

[g4800xp]

The ability to do something many A&Ps can not, under stand that the pilot is not an A&P and while he may sound like an idiot he may have a few things on his or her mind relating to flight/safety of flight, customer service etc..
So when you say "did it do this?" and I say I did not notice the SAT/TAS between FL390 and 360 and compare it to the bla bla bla, it might mean I simply did not know the bla bla bla was connected to the bla bla bla. Some of the questions I have been asked, a test pilot would not know.I am not knocking all A&Ps, just the ones with a myopic view of the Big Picture. I wanted to be an A&P to tie in with antique auto restorations I was doing, somehow ended up flying instead. Good Luck

 

[CRJ's suck]

Nice post avbug. Like he said, you need to have integrity in what you do and treat everything with the same attention to detail. Lube jobs are just as important as engine changes. If you do decide to become an A&P tech, search around for some good cheap schools if you going to use that route to get your certs. If I knew then what I know now, I could of had at least $20,000 more in my pocket and had alot more fun than going to a Christian brothers university outside of Chicago.

 

[Gatorman]

:angryfire
I was going to say something about a previous post. I will just put out my own flames.

I am better than that, You snott-nose college boy

 

[g4800xp]

Who is the snot nosed college boy?

 

[avbug]

The ability to do something many A&Ps can not, under stand that the pilot is not an A&P and while he may sound like an idiot he may have a few things on his or her mind relating to flight/safety of flight, customer service etc..
So when you say "did it do this?" and I say I did not notice the SAT/TAS between FL390 and 360 and compare it to the bla bla bla, it might mean I simply did not know the bla bla bla was connected to the bla bla bla. Some of the questions I have been asked, a test pilot would not know.I am not knocking all A&Ps, just the ones with a myopic view of the Big Picture. I wanted to be an A&P to tie in with antique auto restorations I was doing, somehow ended up flying instead. Good Luck

I think he may be referring to your post.

I'm both. A long time professional pilot, and a long time mechanic, mechanic's assistant, inspector, director of maintenance, etc. I continue to fly, and to turn wrenches.

I frequently see that many pilots see mechanics as idiots. Your post reflects that. I frequently see that many mechanics see pilots as idiots. I tend to agree with that. Your post also reflects that.

As a pilot turning in a squawk, I try to provide as much information as possible. When X occured, I saw XX breaker pop, XXX system failed, and I saw XXXX on the ammeter. I was attempting to do XXXXX at the time, and this is what I did to resolve the matter, per the checklist. If it's an engine problem, I'm going to relay the same data that would be relayed if I were doing a trend monitoring function at altitude, including all power settings such as ITT, EPR, EGT, N1, N2, pressure altitude, outside air temperature, true/indicated airspeed, etc. Things that might just be useful to someone who doesn't have the benifit of dragging it back up to altitude to see what was going on.

Most of them time when a pilot writes up a squawk, it's more along the lines of "Doesn't work." "Inoperative." "Wants to turn left." "Won't turn on." Etc. Never mind that the bewildered mechanic would really like to know exactly why the appliance doesn't appear to work and it's mode of malfunction, and the circumstances under which it malfunctioned, as well as what was done to investigate it and the results, etc. Important stuff. If the mechanic doesn't have much to go on, the pilot has what's coming to him when it gets pushed out the door with a CND write-up (Could Not Duplicate).

I don't care if you're a test pilot, but if you're flying the airplane I certainly expect you to know those systems as well as I do. Tell me you don't, and you've just become one of those dumb pilots...and lost any semblence of respect I have for you. Of course, that would make me one of those pilots who think you need to be a test pilot based on the questions I'm asking you...but the fact that you think that is the very thing that paints you as an idiot...which is exactly why most pilots are thought of by maintenance personel as idiots. And, I suspect, why Gatorman made the very reserved professional remark he did.

I'm guessing he could easily have let you have it with one or both barrells, so don't get too worked up yet. He just might.

 

[Weasel Keeper]

As a pilot turning in a squawk, I try to provide as much information as possible. When X occured, I saw XX breaker pop, XXX system failed, and I saw XXXX on the ammeter. I was attempting to do XXXXX at the time, and this is what I did to resolve the matter, per the checklist. If it's an engine problem, I'm going to relay the same data that would be relayed if I were doing a trend monitoring function at altitude, including all power settings such as ITT, EPR, EGT, N1, N2, pressure altitude, outside air temperature, true/indicated airspeed, etc. Things that might just be useful to someone who doesn't have the benifit of dragging it back up to altitude to see what was going on.

I think I love you man!

Seriously, maintenance times could probably be cut in half if more pilots squawked info like what you just said. A lot of time is lost in troubleshooting or swapping out parts that don't fix the problems...because we don't know what the actual problem was to begin with.

 

[g4800xp]

WOW, all that for answering a post about how to be an A&P. My comment was that it will help you in your career if you remember that pilots are not mechanics. O.K. not often anyway. And to think you all held your tongues!!. Want my home address so you can come and linch me.I don't think I bashed anyone. Read it again! Good god, I agree with everything you guys said. You are giving a guy career advice, as A&Ps and my self as a pilot point of view.


As I was about to signup at Aerotech to start school to get my A&P long ago, one of my many aviation employed cousins said " become a pilot, it is what you want to do" and I said I have no college, am not the smartest tack in the box, and he said you need to be a hell of a lot smarter to be an A&P than a pilot. I agree with him!!!!! Please dont waste time tearing in to me. I agree with my cousin. I just said listen, with an open mind, and understand we come from different technical backgrounds, I am not an idiot.

Avbug said,Most of them time when a pilot writes up a squawk, it's more along the lines of "Doesn't work." "Inoperative." "Wants to turn left." "Won't turn on." Etc.

So train them to be more specific. Simple. If you are DOM, kickem in the ass and train them as to what is vague and what is helpful. I turn in copious notes, with my cell number attached if there is a question. I hold my DOM and techs in the highest regard. They may call me an idiot behind my back, but I sure don't feel that way about them. When I was in the 3rd service center in 3 cities, in 3 days, MEL'ed, then grounded, a Tech found a loose cannon plug on the deek. The deek that all 3 shops looked at!!! Did I say you bunch of stupid &*#$%^%^%^ grease monkeys. Hell no, it was thanks for looking a little further and fixing the thing. Seat cannon plug/ twist tight. This after all these A&Ps looked at me like I was an idiot at 3 centers. Could not duplicate it cause it looked connected but was not and was close enough to work on the ground but not at rotation.

Do you see where I was going to begin with?

Gatorman said":angryfire
I was going to say something about a previous post. I will just put out my own flames."
"I am better than that, You snott-nose college boy"


Well,
I wrote a double barrelled one for you but then followed you lead and erased it. I am a high school graduate, poor at spelling and have never been given a thing in my life but an opportunity here and there. I begged, borrowed, starved, never stole a thing and made it to the top of the heap using my brains, not some silver spoon or daddys help. I am a self made man. The fact that you type cast me that way says a lot about you. You could not have insulted me in in a greater way.

Read my post again and please tell me how I insulted your profession.

 

[Weasel Keeper]

g4800xp, ease up man. I understand where you're coming from. Some folks just drive the bus...but it definately helps if the bus driver knows his rig a little. There's nothing in the regs that says you have to, but it is good to know. What we have in this topic just may make you a better pilot in the end. No, we haven't helped your flying skills...you have most of us beat there...but maybe we've enlightened you as to how to write up a gripe...which will get your bird flying sooner and better...which makes us ALL look good.

 

[g4800xp]

I could not agree more WK, my only intention was to do the same for a guy looking for thought on becoming a A&P. When dealing with drunks, children wild animals or Pilots, it can only help you to understand where they are coming from. ( insert joke about pilots here). So,,,, understanding a pilot has limited mx experience should help a A&P become a better Tech. That was all I was getting at.

 

[JediNein]

As an A&P and someone that flies airplanes, you might consider not trying to fix the POS airplane in flight. It rarely works. Even troubleshooting is sometimes best left for the ground, especially when it comes to flight control problems.

 

[Mr Wu]

I don't think Avbug is asking you to troubleshoot anything when there is a failure, just give a little more info than "INOP". Years ago, I was a mechanic for a company that flew Saab 340s. One morning one of the planes returned to the hangar with a stick shaker problem. Pilot says "stick shaker went off and we couldn't stop it during taxi." We test the system and it tests good. CND signoff. He taxis away and comes right back. "Happened again." We do the test and it tests good. Supervisor says "change something" so we did. Taxis away again and comes right back. "Same again and I'm not taking it until it's fixed." We pretty much overhaul the stick shaker system and test it and it's good. He accepts the airplane and taxis away, jams on the brakes and whips around back to the hangar. He comes down the steps 3 at a time bitching up a storm. Supe tells me to taxi to the gate with him and see what's happening. He starts up, no problem. Starts taxiing, no problem. Turns on the prop de-ice to test it, stick shaker starts to go off. He says, "See!!". We found a shorted prop lead, replaced it and the problem never came back. Wouldn't it have been nice if the original squawk had mentioned the testing of the prop de-ice?

 

[Gatorman]

Only One barrel at a time...

The ability to do something many A&Ps can not, under stand that the pilot is not an A&P and while he may sound like an idiot he may have a few things on his or her mind relating to flight/safety of flight, customer service etc..
So when you say "did it do this?" and I say I did not notice the SAT/TAS between FL390 and 360 and compare it to the bla bla bla, it might mean I simply did not know the bla bla bla was connected to the bla bla bla. Some of the questions I have been asked, a test pilot would not know.I am not knocking all A&Ps, just the ones with a myopic view of the Big Picture. I wanted to be an A&P to tie in with antique auto restorations I was doing, somehow ended up flying instead. Good Luck

You wanted it...your gona get. (you touch the stove, your gona get burned)

First shot:
The ability to do something many A&Ps can not, under stand that the pilot is not an A&P and while he may sound like an idiot he may have a few things on his or her mind relating to flight/safety of flight, customer service etc..


For a pilot, you just made yourself sound like an idot. If you cannot decide that it is a simple squawk that does not fall under the safety of flight catagory, you should not be a pilot. You ARE an idot.
A&P's are not mind readers and one thing for dang sure you do not get to pick your own A&P so they can be you lil biaoch.

That is exactly what you made it sound like.
I don't give a flip about you, my job is to fix the plane.
Do you think I will do backflips for you when you 'drop in' after I have already put in my 8 hour and want to go home. No I don't. I don't care to pull an all nighter so you can relocate the plane when you say you have to have the plane a 6:30. Mr., I am tired of that stuff.

Here is one example of the crap we have had to put up with...
Hotshot pilot comes in (unscheduled) with a light that is 'INOP' on his insturment panel and leaves. The jerk doesn't even bother telling me what light it was before he left. So, I go in and do a light sweep...seems that it is a hell of a lot more that one light that is not coming on (but it is not the one all-important light that he does not see come on). I wind up changing out 25 peanut bulbs.
Cowboy pilot shows up 4 hours after he said he said he would be (had to work over time to meet his schedule and get specialized lamps ordered in counter-to-counter) and he gloats about some hot chick he picked up at a bar, got drunk and woke up late.
Anyway, he hops in his flying machine and cranks up; within seconds he shuts it down and comes storming over to the scheduled in plane I am working on that I was pulled off of and now have to work overtime to meet his schedule and then write off overtime on the bill at the end of the job. He starts chewing on my rear that his light is still INOP!!
We walk back out to his plane and he demonstrates in a real bitchy way that this light does not come on. I take all of the abuse with a smile and grattitude, I ask him if he did a lamp test and slowly reach over and flip a systems switch up into the ON position that one of his other mechanics/pilots turned off as a part of a shut down proceedure that is in the pilot's handbook.
He sheepishly replies that he did not know that. Apology? No. He gets even more mad because he was called out on it. Whatever.
Well, a month goes by and he has not paid his bill. Why not??!! Well it was a switch flip and I did not fix anything. He refuses to pay for parts he says he does not need, the AOG courier fees and will not pay overtime because he did not 'authorize' it.

We don't read minds and we are only as good as the information provided to us.


Well, G4800 do you really want the other barrel?

I suggest you don't touch the stove because I think the flames might get much higher.

 

[g4800xp]

Note, to, no1pilot2000, who started this thread, as you look for advice on an A&P career I would say apprentice under gatorman who is with out a doubt the smartest man on earth. He is God. He is perfect. Understand that all pilots are @#**&# idiots. It will take you far in your career. Real far. When I bring a write up to you with the exact problem such as
" the right nutcracker test light failed to illuminate in flight, when gear was dropped for approach. We did a go around to trouble shoot, then right nutcracker illuminated upon the next test. All systems functioned normal on landing,rollout and taxi."
under stand that gatorman will start with a flurry of #%$&^^%#^ pilots,#$%$%&^#(*&. It will be something like %^&#@^& pilot should have landed not gone around, the test light only means bla bla bla, if the ^%%$^&^ knew anything he would be dangerous. Jesus, next I will have to wipe the pilots ass for him. But if you land w/o consulting the check list because you know what and how to react by memory, gatorman will say %$$&@^( pilots did not use the check list, do you know what could have happened if the bla bla bla did not unlock the bla bla bla. My guess is there is no doing right by gatorman. Period. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
Ya know gatorman, I agree you,your hot shot should have his ass kicked for that half assed write up and you should feel free to call and wake up from crew rest at 3am in bum__ck egypt to clarify what the hell he meant.
We did pick our DOM and techs by the way. And he picked us. Brilliant guy and great DOM. we do not have many problems with write ups because he was asked to train us as to what he expects. That is called being a leader and a manager.
Have a great day and in fact have nice life. I can not believe I spent this much time on this post, answering a post asking what a potential A&P student might need to now. Save your ammo and instead how about you write nopilot2000 a post about what he asked, some tips on being a A&P and being a great one at that! I don't doubt your skills for a minute, I am serious about that. Sorry i ruffled your feathers and thanks for serving my country. If it helps, fire the other barrel, it means nothing to me.

 

[Gatorman]

Thank you.....

Thank you for proving yet another point for for me.

no1pilot2000 got some of the best advice one A&P could get before jumping into the game. (if g4800xp cared to look at ALL of the replies before popping off again).

That is why I stated that you have to love aviation. You have got to, to put with crap like this and still want to stay in it.

no1pilot2000, I am sorry that this thread is turning ugly, but it is better that you see it here and catch on to how some of aviations relationships before you go on than to invest your time and money getting into it and not like it.

I just want to thank g4800xp, very helpful tid-bits just keep coming out of him. Not all A&P can be afforded the oppertunity to be hand picked by a pilot and then held in such high regard.

Most of the folks in the A&P world are working in the service centers and the likes and do not have graces of being able to 'train' the pilots and crew to where they can communicate with eachother.
I cannot imagine the nirvana it much be.

No, we are the ones that have pilots such g4800xp show up on our ramp and tell us to fix it and have it ready for the 6:30 departure.

Oh, and one more thing.... I will, with out any reserves, admit that i am not perfect, otherwise I would be hand picking my own crew to work on the aircraft.

 

[g4800xp]

I agree with you on all of that Gatorman, but I could not imagine telling you or any one how to fix it or trouble shoot the problem. I DONT KNOW!!! Could venture a guess maybe if there was a skorch mark wherea engine used to be. I am a excellent mechanic on antique cars, bikes, love restoration work, but there is a reason I won't go near planes.

Too much to learn for me to do it right. look at your resume. I would rather refer to you. simple. You are the professional. If you want to tell me how to fly the plane, I will actually listen. May not do it that way but I would not launch in to one of those " I am the Captain" tirades. If you say the "max continuous is 930c by certification but the last variation of the engine was 890c, why not use 890c to reduce engine wear unless more is needed, you be the judge." I would respect your opinion and say sounds like a great idea.
(It worked great, and time has shown he was right).

I would love to have a guy like you fix my plane, i have no doubt you know your stuff, and sir, I am can not imagine me telling anybody how to fix it. Never have never will.

I have been blessed with a great job and great co-workers, nirvana,,,, no, but a good job yes. If you can not communicate, it wont work. And I am on your side, itis a love of your work that keeps guys flying (or wrenching for less than a Mcdonalds manager makes) at a lot of centers and fbos. It is disgusting. To see a guy install lug nuts on an assembly line for $70000 a year in detroit,( air conditioning, heat ) and A&Ps not is wrong. Gatorman, kick the pilots ass for bad write ups, and by all means call him at home for an explaination if you need to. Heck, feel free to K.O him for telling you how to fix it( especially if he is a snot nosed college boy) hell kick him once for me .

 

[avbug]

XP, I believe I said before that you came across as the pilot-fool that most of us mechanics tend to see. I take that back. You're not the idiotic stereotypical pilot, but darn close to a bloody idiot. You may recall the oft-quoted yet never the less sage advice that it's often best to keep one's trap shut and appear the fool, rather than open it and remove all doubt.

You appear to have removed all doubt. Well done.

 

[Gatorman]

Ok g4800xp, I think we've squared up. Thanks for the retort.

Now, I have another one of those stories to tell....for the mechanics in here, this one will be funny.... maybe with your Challenger experience you will get a chuckle too g4800xp.

Just a couple years ago I had worked at a repair station and had done an inspection or a prebuy (too many planes ago), but we had done a lot of work on this CL601. The pilot was a little bit of a loon and earned the nickname we gave him, Mr Magoo.
Well, Mr. Magoo was a older fella and had been flying these things since the first one was built, knew everything there was to know about Challengers. He would get very excited when we would come up to him and tell him some news about the aircraft and we had to hold in the laughter.
On this particular aircraft, they requested a test flight. So we popped in a couple guys - avionics/electrical and a couple refurb guys for the ride.
I stayed behind to catch the paperwork up to close the work order out. The plane was gone about 90 minutes and landed, rolled down the runway and then taxied back to our ramp with the left T/R hanging out....then he shut the engine down.
Of course, being my plane to watch, I ran out there and asked Mr.Magoo what happened?
Boy, he was ripe. He popped up and was going crazy, barely able to talk. Funny, he was excited and upset at the same time. (had to be there) Anyway he is telling me how the right T/R would not stow. The copilot was standing there behind Mr.Magoo, big tall balck man, qiuet guy. Mr. Magoo had stopped babbling long enough for me to peek in the cockpit then I asked him "Did you try the Emergency Stow on the Thrust Reversers?"
This little old man got bowed up in the chest and his head was about to pop from his excitement, he said "What, why would I want to do that for?"

Fortunately for my job's sake the tall back gentleman saw what was happening because Mr.Magoo when straight to my boss and unloaded on him about me, the plane, the landing, everything.
The tall fella was in the office with Mr.Magoo and after Mr.Magoo left, he told my boss what really happened and about the amount of restraint I mush have had to put up with Mr.Magoo and that when he gets the plane back home, he will not be flying with him again.

FYI, if Mr. Magoo had pushed the EMER STOW on the T/R (which is the very design it was made for) he would have either confirmed the PDU was seized or the T/R was not rigged correctly. As it was, had to shut down the APU (exhaust under engine) and manually stow the T/R. The PDU was shot. Had two AOG parts on order counter-to-counter and pulled an all-nighter.


True story.


God Bless Mr.Magoo....where ever he is.

 

[TrafficInSight]

I had a guy whip out his screwdriver IN FLIGHT and attempt to "adjust" the compass while on an instrument flight with a student. He stripped the compensator... never did get it to read right

Luckily most of the pilots I deal with are either pretty smart and experienced or student pilots and I can forgive that... there are a few though...

We maintain a T-tail Lance that's part of a one plane club sort of arrangement... basically the owner rents it out to a few guys he knows. One night the alternator died on this guy coming out of his departure airport and he didn't notice. Eventually the battery died, but he pressed on anyway. It took him three tries to get the gear down using the emergency extension. Finally he got it down but nearly ran it off the runway in the landing. While discussing problem/symptoms with him he said "If I wasn't worried about what (owner) would say I would have just geared it up." When I looked into the cockpit the guy had his cellphone, MP-3 player, a little reading light, and his laptop plugged into this splitter that was plugged into the cigarette lighter. He also had about 5 flashlights clipped around pointed at various things... he was... well equipped!



Anyway, as an A&P I try not to take poor squawks and questionable pilots personally, they will happen, as evidenced below .

 

[sbn340mech]

Nice post avbug. Like he said, you need to have integrity in what you do and treat everything with the same attention to detail. Lube jobs are just as important as engine changes. If you do decide to become an A&P tech, search around for some good cheap schools if you going to use that route to get your certs. If I knew then what I know now, I could of had at least $20,000 more in my pocket and had alot more fun than going to a Christian brothers university outside of Chicago.

Would that school happen to be Lewis University by chance?? I went there from 99-02

 

[DFries]

Why are all these pilots in the A+P forum? Thats almost as annoying as Pilots hanging around the Maint. Breakroom talking sh*t. How long would that last before someone got a rachet upside the head???


GPS....Uploaded
FMC....Crossloaded
EEC....Downloaded
Tires....Sideloaded (we'll leave that one to the crew!!)

 

[g4800xp]

Damned if I want to learn, damned if I don"t.