SJS is spreading!!!!

[Rabble]

Boy, the Teamsters must LOVE you House. Management posterboy.

"Sure, I'll take a paycut. Gosh, its the economy. Supply and demand ya' know."

 

[House_X]

Boy, the Teamsters must LOVE you House. Management posterboy.

"Sure, I'll take a paycut. Gosh, its the economy. Supply and demand ya' know."

I already took a paycut when I lost my job with an ALPA carrier. This has nothing to due with unions because there are plenty of ALPA carriers which have some of the lowest CA and FO wages in the industry. Ask all the engineers, accountants, and office workers that have taken paycut in other professions...are they sellouts too? Aviation is just one of the many industries that are suffering...



Our profession has very little bargaining power with a weak economy...there's a larger picture that's not just affecting our profession...it's affecting all professions. And yes...like many, I've contemplated leaving the industry due to the new economic realities. The NWA mech strike is a good example of how little power we have while our employers continue to loose hundreds of millions of dollars per financial quarter. Your opinion is admirable, and unfortunately, ineffective in this economy.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Cool! And you probably made more when you were a 172-RG Captain than you will make as a 5 year E-170 FO. E-Jets taking over the country, awesome!!!

HA HA HA! Awesome!

 

[MESAhater]

"Im sorry you feel that way considering the contract is what it is until its up in 2 more years. ALPA is the middle man for most pilots. They can only help in negotiating whats in the pilots best interests. If we got everything that we wanted it wouldnt be a business anymore. Mesa,Skywest, and Southwest are the only ones turnin profits out there right now. They each have their own way of cutting cost's and unfortunately Mesa is one of the lowest paying regionals. The 900 does get better pay vs. the 200 so dont worry about that. Sounds like you used to work for Mesa and got fired or something. Did you fu*k up? You probably couldnt pass their training! At least I would have a beer with another pilot before labeling them. dang arrogant cocky superpilot "-Spinplate
Sorry Spinplate I never had the "honor" of working for MESA, I went and flew for a carrier who gives a #*it about it's pilots. One that it's pilots will stand up for themselves to get better pay and contract instead of working for sub par pay and work rules just to fly a jet @ 300hrs. Your comment about Mesa, skywest, and SWA being the only ones turning profits you need to check your sources because there is at least one more regional making money. Like I said before I have nothing against the pilots, it is the company, when that contract is up you all better stand up and do what is right for yourselves and the rest of the industry.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Sellouts:
Any pilot who attended Comair Academy

Totally disagree with you here. Attending an Academy with a 141 Program is not in and of itself selling out. You are paying for FLIGHT TRAINING, thus by your standard, only a military pilot would be a non-sellout (and they sign a binding contract to pay for their training--and training contracts are a form of "selling out" in the eyes of many). If you narrowed it down a little further to being someone stupid enough to work as a CFI for ten bucks and hour and *THEN* going through a PFT program for the amount of money you will make your first year on the line (IF YOU MADE IT PAST THE INTERVIEW) then I might be in your camp. But going to CAA alone is not enough to be a sellout...

The stupidity of the old PFT Comair days was that you paid a fortune to get the training, then worked as a CFI for about 10K/year....then turned around and paid 10K to get a job paying 17K!! Just not good when you run the numbers through the calculator on that one.

I guess my dad was a sellout. He fought in Vietnam and then had to buy a type to get on at SWA (because the FAA did not recognize his T-43 qualifications as an Instructor Pilot with the USAF)...where he was a Captain for 25+ years.

Interesting...

As for not laughing at Regional pilots... I'm pretty much crying for you at this point. I can't find any reason to laugh at someone making $20-30K a year to fly a jet airliner....regardless of size. Looking back on it I am laughing at myself for being stupid enough to have done it though.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Legacydriver said, "As for not laughing at Regional pilots... I'm pretty much crying for you at this point. I can't find any reason to laugh at someone making $20-30K a year to fly a jet airliner....regardless of size. Looking back on it I am laughing at myself for being stupid enough to have done it though."

First time I ever agreed 100% with SkullOne.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Legacydriver said, "As for not laughing at Regional pilots... I'm pretty much crying for you at this point. I can't find any reason to laugh at someone making $20-30K a year to fly a jet airliner....regardless of size. Looking back on it I am laughing at myself for being stupid enough to have done it though."

First time I ever agreed 100% with SkullOne.

Finally! Common ground!

We are all dumbasses to fly or have flown jets for peanuts.

 

[FlyChicaga]

We are all dumbasses to fly or have flown jets for peanuts.

Yup. I'm pretty embarassed to be a regional pilot right now. I don't know if it's the pay, or the attitudes and immaturity I see.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Yup. I'm pretty embarassed to be a regional pilot right now. I don't know if it's the pay, or the attitudes and immaturity I see.

A combination. I felt the same way. And the joy--no *lust*--to destroy fellow pilots in any and every way possible. It's amazing to behold really. Management fights us and then we fight each other. No wagon circling in the Commuter industry that's for sure. Every man for himself.

 

[BushwickBill]

I'm pretty sure its every man for himself in all aspects of avaiation, or at least the parts I've seen so for.

 

[Caveman]

"As for not laughing at Regional pilots... I'm pretty much crying for you at this point. I can't find any reason to laugh at someone making $20-30K a year to fly a jet airliner....regardless of size."

Let's not limit ourselves to just regional pilots. How about some of the 'real' airline pilots that make less than 30K a year? Aloha will pay you a whopping $23 @ hour to fly a 737 and UPS will give you a whole $27 @ hour to fly anything from a 727 to a 747. I guess SJS is an industry wide problem.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I think there's probably a difference between probationary payrates and lowballing the industry in order to secure growth, Caveman.

That being said, both of the examples you gave seem low. In 1998 first year pay at AirTran was $25,000. In 1999 first year pay at US Airways was $35,000.

Airline pilots at-large have no concept of "inflation".

 

[Caveman]

O.k. Let's look at some 2nd year rates. These are all 2nd year rates based on monthly guarantee. I threw in the Comair 2nd year CR7 FO as a basis for comparison. Keep in mind, all these other carriers are flying 'mainline' a/c. I think the CRJ FO stacks up fairly well. Especially if you consider that probably none of these other companies would give the 2nd year CR7 FO the time of day if he appplied to work there prior to succombing to SJS. CMR, while on the high end of the CR7 range, isn't an exception. Horizen is about the same and ASA is close.


Co/Monthly guar/per diem/B plan/401k/Equip


Allegiant $2940 $1.00 N 3% MD80

Amerijet $2665 unk N 4% 727

Champion $2405 $1.50 N N 727

Comair $3075 $1.75 Y 2.5% CR7

Miami Air $2940 unk N 1.5% 727 ($18K 3yr training contract)

North American $3120 $1.60 N 4% 767/757

Omni $3180 $1.50 N N DC10/757

Ryan $3770 $1.25 N 1.5% 737/757/MD80/A320

TransMeridian $3430 $1.50 N N 757/MD80

USAJet $3140 $1.58 N 5% DC9

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Boy, ya really picked the cream of the crop airlines to compare yourself to there didn't ya?

What happened to UPS and Aloha? <grin>

 

[Caveman]

All I'm saying is that it's easy pickings to bust on a CRJ/ERJ newhire when in fact there are a whole bunch of pilots working for similar or less wages flying a lot bigger equipment. All the ones listed make more than $30K the first year so they were left off the orginal list of Aloha/UPS.

When you consider that a DCA grad or any other CFI doesn't stand a snowball's chance in Hades at getting hired at anywhere other than a CRJ/ERJ operator what would you have them do? The carriers I listed won't touch them and they are the industry bottom feeders. At least the CRJ/ERJ job will pay in the same neighborhood as the second tier 727 operators and there is the chance for PIC time and even long term career potential at some of the better 'regionals'.

Hey, I'm not bragging about CRJ/ERJ pay. I'm just questioning the BS use of SJS targeted at just the CRJ/ERJ pilots. Who's the bigger knucklehead? The guy flying a CR7 for $42K or the guy flying a Maddog for $35K? 50 more seats, less money, no retirement, no 401K, less per diem, etc, etc.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

"When you consider that a DCA grad or any other CFI doesn't stand a snowball's chance in Hades at getting hired at anywhere other than a CRJ/ERJ operator what would you have them do?"

People tend to appreciate that which they work hard to achieve.

Thrusting these people directly into a high-performance, transport category jet is the root-cause of SJS (in my opinion). The vast majority of them have no appreciation of what it means to be an airline pilot. They've learned NOTHING but that writing a big enough check will yield career advancement.

What would I have them do???

Go out and earn some experience so that they will be an asset to Comair and to the Captains that they fly with.

Build 135 minimums instructing, banner-towing, pipeline flying, etc.

Then go fly charter, freight, corporate, etc. LEARN to make decisions and operate in the IFR environment.

THEN -- go apply for a job flying an RJ. The result will be an individual who knows the value of hard-work, who is more than a right-seat student pilot, and who will be an asset to the pilot group during contract negotiations.

(I realize that as long as "bridge" programs, "guaranteed interviews" and rediculously low hiring minima exist that my wish-list is unrealistic)

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Lets just cut to the quick:

SJS is nothing more than the global problem with generation "Me".

They want everything handed to them on a silver platter, but they aren't willing to work for anything.

Lack of work ethic. We look at it as an "airline pilot" problem, but its not. Its a generational problem.

 

[k_EAT=ho_ME]

Lets just cut to the quick:

SJS is nothing more than the global problem with generation "X".

They want everything handed to them on a silver platter, but they aren't willing to work for anything.

Lack of work ethic. We look at it as an "airline pilot" problem, but its not. Its a generational problem.

I'm no Gen X'er and I paid some dues instructing, hauling groceries in the YK Delta, and hauling checks, but I think you're painting with too broad a brush.

Let's say a guy busted his ass instructing at a Mom & Pop for a couple of years to get to 1000 & 100, and then gets a job offer at a jet regional. What's he supposed to do, turn it down, so he can pay some more dues hauling checks? You really expect him to have the best interests of his fellow pilots in mind, or maybe just his own ability to pay some bills, fly better equipment, and gain whatever other perceived benefits he sees at an airline?

I've met some guys young enough (almost) to be my own kid who don't have a "generational problem," they just want to be pilots and they have enough time to get hired flying a jet. If there's anything wrong with this whole situation, it's that there are no meaningful regulatory experience requirements to be a 121 FO. The airlines aren't going to support it. And the feds probably won't push it because there's little, if any, evidence that the current non-requirements have any detrimental impact on safety.

Is the playing field uneven in terms of how many dues some guys paid compared to others? Yes. But to say all the young guys getting hired into jets are undeserving, spoiled slackers is a bit ridiculous. Are there some tools out there? Yes. If you're a Captain, then I hope you take the opportunity to bitch-slap the arrogant punks when, and only when, they truly deserve it.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Gen X isn't the problem. This problem started before the first Gen X pilot soloed!

The problem is being young and stupid.

Every generation will face that.

We don't realize how stupid we were at 25 until we're 35 and by then it's too late.

My personal opinion is that very few of us as a whole have military experience. You learn things like loyalty, duty, and esprit de corps in the military. Without those things you're just a backstabbing weasel trying to claw over the top of someone to get to a better position... I don't know if this is true, but my gut tells me previous generations of pilots were more loyal to one another.

Couple this with the stupidity of youth and voilla! You have guys like Guppy creaming to fly a 170 for $25K a year.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Spinplate is only defending Mesa because he just got hired there. Give him a month on reserve, he'll change his mind.