Single Pilot CE-500

[beernuts]

Can't remember where, how, and what is required to remove the SIC required limitation on the CE-500. Could someone help me out with this please. I'd like to do this if I can with recurrent.

 

[flyfastinmy10]

I beleive it is like another type ride. They don't like to do it for your 1st 500 type but if you have been flying it, shouldn't be a problem.
You may want to call FSI or Simuflite, they can tell you.
Good Luck

 

[HawkerF/O]

What are the positive benefits of flying a bizjet single pilot? There is nothing safe or professional about it. Everything is fine until one rolls back as you enter 200 and 1/2 and for some unexplained reason it takes the A/P with it. I hope the insurance companies keep the single pilot rates through the roof in order to weed out the bottom feeding low rents. Aviation is like a self cleaning oven. Good day!

 

[beernuts]

Honestly in every day practice there probably isn't any except for an owner being a cheapa$$. It's more of knowing I can acomplish it and besides, what happens in your Hawker when the Captain keels over mid flight. You start flying that 2 pilot airplane by yourself. (at least I'd hope you keep flying and don't throw up your hands and ride it in) Also I'd just like to have a certificate without any limitations on it, same reason some day I will take the single engine ATP checkride.

 

[G100driver]

What are the positive benefits of flying a bizjet single pilot? There is nothing safe or professional about it. Everything is fine until one rolls back as you enter 200 and 1/2 and for some unexplained reason it takes the A/P with it. I hope the insurance companies keep the single pilot rates through the roof in order to weed out the bottom feeding low rents. Aviation is like a self cleaning oven. Good day!

I am glad that someone responded to this intelligently. I had one MORON, in SMO, tell me that we were all a bunch of pu$$$$y's for flying our airplanes with 2 pilots and how we all wasted the companies money. On the rare occation when my boss needs to charter a T-prop or Cit I insist that 2 QUALIFIED pilots are on board. You can send me the bill.

 

[HawkerF/O]

besides, what happens in your Hawker when the Captain keels over mid flight. You start flying that 2 pilot airplane by yourself. (at least I'd hope you keep flying and don't throw up your hands and ride it in)

Let's compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Using my example, if we had one roll back in my Hawker as we entered 200 and 1/2 and the A/P goes with it, the PNF runs the checklist and the PF flies the airplane. WE HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE! If that happened to you, you have to fly the airplane, locate the cheklist, talk on the radio, find the emergency in the QRH, then run that check list. There is no one there to double check your work (ie. make sure you dont cut the ful off to the wrong engine....it happens!!) Why take that chance and load yourself up like that? If you can't afford to have 2 pilots, why are you operating a piece of equipment like that? I am not suggesting this is the case with you, but when something comes up, and eventually it wiil, you will wish you had that #2 guy there, and so will your boss. Your boss wants a single pilot situation, fine. Let's just hope he never gets into a 2 pilot event. Personally, I use superior judgement to keep me out of situations that will require the use of my superior skills. That does not appear to be the case with Single pilot bizjet operators.

 

[Groundpounder]

There is an S/II based where I work, flown single pilot. The a/c flies alot, and the pilot always seems to be in a bad mood. I wonder why.

 

[mavrck]

hey lets face it. Most of the places today are ALWAYS trying to save a buck or two. If an operator sees a chance to save some cashflow, you can bet its usually at the expense of the pilots. Its also the same reason why we as pilots are undercutting each others throats to take a job for a company paying peanuts. Yeah, Yeah, we all been there, done that, " sure ill take that job for $12,000/yr id love to have the time in that type"

These companies know that and take advantage of the pilots every step they can.

Bottom line as for the reason people operate single pilot is $$$$$. But they cant see the trees for the forset. What they are saving in not paying an FO, they are wasting on paying higher insurance.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

What they are saving in not paying an FO, they are wasting on paying higher insurance.

F/O's now work for $9000 a year??

It is about the money though, the owners are looking for ways to save a buck, but the insurance difference is not the huge amount you think it is. 9k a year is the difference on most of the Citations between SP and two pilot ops.

 

[HMR]

I had one MORON, in SMO, tell me that we were all a bunch of pu$$$$y's for flying our airplanes with 2 pilots and how we all wasted the companies money.

That sounds like my old CP. Was he pacing around the room with slobber coming out of his mouth because he was yelling so loud? We were given that same speech at least once a week. Twice a week if the weather was really bad.

I completely agree that planes should be flown by a competent crew. However, If I had to fly single pilot, I'd much rather do it in a CE500 than a ratty, old King Air or piston twin. Been there, not going back.

 

[G100driver]

I completely agree that planes should be flown by a competent crew. However, If I had to fly single pilot, I'd much rather do it in a CE500 than a ratty, old King Air or piston twin. Been there, not going back.

Agreed man. I used to fly this old POS 690. I would fly 3.5 hour leg only to hold and fly an approach to mins followed up by one more leg in the dark and ice back home. It sucked!! I would have given my left manhood to fly a single pilot citation.

I guess now that I am a little older and see how much safer flying is with 2 competent pilots I am not ever going back (hopefully).

It is about the money though, the owners are looking for ways to save a buck, but the insurance difference is not the huge amount you think it is.

They are moron's who need an education in taking care of their familes and employee's. F'em. If you can afford a jet you can afford to pay 2 living wages to YOUR crew.

 

[getonit]

I don't see a problem with flying a C-500 series single pilot at all, and I do it, very rarely (in a 501). There are 3 memory items for an engine failure, gear up and V2 until 400 AGL, flaps up that is it, you don't have to do anything ie cutoff fuel, etc. Why rush it? Surely you can fly an airplane with one engine out, enough with no autopilot until you have things in control? I personally worry more about piston twins, where you MUST do something.

I fly with a bunch of different $18,000/year "copilots", our company is cheap also. And it is more work for me to teach them all of the calls, procedures, etc, every time because they only fly with in the jet every 3-4 months. They don't know the airplane, systems, or flying into busy airspace, basically they are seat warmers mainly because the people in back want 2 crew, even though the second person really isn't there for much. Shame on our company for telling the owners they are copilots, but that is another story.

I wouldn't worry about an engine failure, AP failure, and 200 and 1/2, and that day you happen to be single pilot. Why don't you add Aspen departure at the same time? Statistically it isn't going to happen. That sounds like a ostrich in the sand approach but it is true. If you are worried about it, don't fly airplanes. Every time you leave the house you increase risk, drive to the airport, or get in an airplane risk goes up.

 

[OviedoBob]

I fly a CE-500 with part time co-pilots.

I would much rather have that V1 engine failure with 200-1/2 in a single pilot CE500 that any other "high" performance" twin I have flown. It is just a great airplane to fly. Don't like single pilot jet stuff, but I am a strong believer in constant recurrent training; some operators let their pilots go to recurrent every 6 months. Some require it because of insurance. And some pilots love single pilot stuff because they are such a--holes no one can stand to fly with them.

Without constant flights, flying with part time co-pilots can be a real frustration in keeping them current with the airplane stuff. Although in breaking them in, I'm very happy with them if they know how to make the radio calls and the audio panel selector functions. Takes a load off me especiially on the departure in weather.

 

[flyfastinmy10]

I'd just like to have a certificate without any limitations on it, same reason some day I will take the single engine ATP checkride.

The C500 type is like any other type. There are no limitations on it. I don't have a problem with someone operating this A/C single pilot. Provided you have been flying PIC as a crew in it for a while. It is much easier to fly than any other twin that I'm aware of but you reason stated to remove the limitations is BS. What's the real reason?

 

[FlierDude]

.
Perhaps only the folks who are qualified should reply.

SP ops in the Citation are quite manageable. I agree they send the wrong message, but the Feds certified it that way and, when necessary, it can be safely flown. Good point, OviedoBob, on the part-timers. They are more of a liability than they're worth in most cases. But hey, looks good pulling in with 2 heads up front!

 

[HawkerF/O]

I don't see a problem with flying a C-500 series single pilot at all, and I do it, very rarely (in a 501).

BullSh*T you fly a Citation, Getonit. Your profile does not reflect that.

getonit vbmenu_register("postmenu_487442", true);
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 82

Aircraft Experience: C-152, C-172, C-208, PA32, SA-226/227
Flight Experience: Civilian
Ratings: ATP, CFII
Total Time: 2500

The reasons those things come out of your mouth is because you are a CFI running around in singles still. Go find another venue for your tales.

 

[G100driver]

I fly with a bunch of different $18,000/year "copilots", our company is cheap also. And it is more work for me to teach them all of the calls, procedures, etc, every time because they only fly with in the jet every 3-4 months. They don't know the airplane, systems, or flying into busy airspace, basically they are seat warmers mainly because the people in back want 2 crew, even though the second person really isn't there for much.

I have a crazy idea ... how about TRAINING them and actually letting them fly every other leg on a regular basis.

Perhaps only the folks who are qualified should reply

It looks everyone here is an ATP and is a professional pilot ... looks like we are qualified.

 

[FlierDude]

.

It looks everyone here is an ATP and is a professional pilot ... looks like we are qualified.

I disagree. The question is about Citation single-pilot ops. Being an ATP, an A&P or a Sport Pilot doesn't make one qualified to comment IMHO. It's a unique situation, and only those who have been there (of which I are one ) can give an accurate reply.

I wouldn't presume to tell another aviator how to operate an aircraft in which I have no experience. Maybe that makes me the exception?

.

 

[FlierDude]

I have a crazy idea ... how about TRAINING them and actually letting them fly every other leg on a regular basis.

Not to pick on ya, but it's hard to do when it's a new face every coupla weeks.

 

[jumper52]

CE500 Type Rating

First of all, it's not like all other type ratings. You have to consider if the aircraft is certificated Part 23 or 25. And then other stipulations come into play. Exemption letter exists to fly single pilot under Part 25 I believe. And then certain equipment has to be installed to fly single pilot.
Be careful, situations out there can get you in deep doo doo!!! Check with FSDO office before you decide to fly a Citation single pilot, when it has been certificated for a two pilot crew. It will bite you!

Cheers

 

[HMR]

These SIC's would stick around longer if they were properly paid/trained.

 

[getonit]

Hawker F/O,
you are a d!ckhead. I have better things to do than update my profile on the internet. But since you really want to know. I now have 3300 hours, Citation type rating, fly as PIC on a I and V as well as a King Air. Does that make you feel any better.

 

[beernuts]

Hey Hawker, I don't understand what you are so upset about. I was just trying to ask a question. I do not fly single pilot. You should be able to tell by my question I am not currently qualified to fly a Citation alone. I simply wanted to know if there was any minimum time requirements and who offered the training.
I agree that as long as the copilot has any clue about flying and the airplane it's better than flying it alone. However I also can understand where it can be worse having a clueless FO than just flying alone. I'd rather know that I have to do all the tasks myself than call for things and get a "what, where is that at?" as time is wasting and my attention is divided.
I am not looking at flying a Citation single pilot for a job (or any other plane except a skyhawk for personal trips) If I get a trip in the plane I fly with a copilot PERIOD. If you don't like that then find someone else to fly your plane. That does not mean I can't look at getting a limitation off my certificate. It would be the same if I went to an airline and had a circling in VMC only limitation. I'd look into the possibility of having it removed.
It is more of a resume thing for me than a job requirement. Some day I will fly a seplane ...some day.... and when I finally do I will take the checkride at the ATP level. Is there a need to, no. But why not do things to the best of my abilities? For that matter I probably would never need to add any new categories or classes beyond private level, but does that mean I have to stop there?

 

[G100driver]

Not to pick on ya, but it's hard to do when it's a new face every coupla weeks.

No worries, dude, you are not picking on me. Instead of a new face every week, how about the same one every week

If you are constantly retraining people then perhaps they need an insentive to stay.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Hawker F/O,
you are a d!ckhead. I have better things to do than update my profile on the internet. But since you really want to know. I now have 3300 hours, Citation type rating, fly as PIC on a I and V as well as a King Air. Does that make you feel any better.

Ummmmmm, let me think..................No

 

[G100driver]

.

I disagree. The question is about Citation single-pilot ops. Being an ATP, an A&P or a Sport Pilot doesn't make one qualified to comment IMHO. It's a unique situation, and only those who have been there (of which I are one ) can give an accurate reply.

I wouldn't presume to tell another aviator how to operate an aircraft in which I have no experience. Maybe that makes me the exception?

.

Not disagree for disagreement sake, but I disagree. We can all bring up the subject of safety and marginal operations. The only reason one flies single pilot is because the owner is a tightwad or the CP has a massive ego. Either one makes for a maginal operation.

 

[OviedoBob]

Hey Beernuts:

I'm somewhat like you. Several years ago I got my ATP single engine seaplane rating in a fully equipped Maule in FL. A couple of years later I went to a seaplane operation in Flagler County Airport in FL and got my ME ATP seaplane rating in a Twin Bee (one of those ugly Republic aircraft). I had no reason to get a ATP in both classes of aircraft, other than the fact I wanted to. It was fun, lots of work under the hood, and a sense of accomplishment. I did both events while doing a vacation in FL!

Floats (down and locked)!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

SP in the 550's is not a big deal, they are very tame airplanes as long as the PIC has some good experience. Not that an extra pair of eyes are not always useful, but to be honest, if you cannot fly a 550 single pilot IFR, you don't have any business in any light twin single pilot IFR either. I will take an engine failure in the 550 any day of the week over a failure in a light twin.

Lets face it, the 550 is not a speed demon and has never been mistaken for a real jet. It does what it was intended to do, move people at near jet speeds and still get into a short strip, while operating at near turbo-prop costs.

 

[beernuts]

Can't remember where, how, and what is required to remove the SIC required limitation on the CE-500. Could someone help me out with this please. I'd like to do this if I can with recurrent.

Ok I don't remember asking anything about the sanity, safety, sensibility, or any other things like that. I am just looking for the where, how and what, NOT WHY. If you can't respectfully respond to these few questions please save the bandwidth and just read the posts.

FYI: I would have no problems with the FAA saying any plane requiring a type rating also requires a qualified and typed copilot.
At the same time how many are complaining about the phase out of flight engineers and flight navigators?
Some day the most any of us do will be to ride as passengers or fly on Microsoft

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Alright to try and answer your question.

All the 500's 550's and 560's except for the XL can be flown with the C-500 type. this type is good for 7 airplanes (8 if you count a varient that only includes about 3 hulls)

There is no SIC required type restriction for the 500 series(that I am aware of, doesn't mean it hasn't been issued in the past), you are probably thinking of the 525 series (The CJ, CJ1, CJ2) it has a SP type and a crew type avaliable, But is officially certified as a single pilot airplane on its type certificate.

All the 500 series (Except the XL) can be flown SP. The difference is how you go about it. Some of the 500's are certified as SP, and do not require any special training, some are certified as two pilot birds and require a waiver to fly it SP. Confused yet....it gets worse.

The 550 and 560 series may be flown SP providing you take the SP waiver training and checkride, which must be renewed every twelve months. There is a varient of the 550 that does not require this waiver, however the varient does take a considerable weight penalty. (down to 12,500 MTOW) I do not remember the designator for this varient, but as I understand it, only a very few remain in operation, most have been converted back into the standard 550 since the waiver is avalible. (The conversion is mainly paperwork only and simply resets the max weights for the plane)

Still following me....don't worry heres more to confuse you.

The 550 and 560 SP waivers are Aircraft specific. For example, I am waivered to fly the Citation 550 Bravo Single pilot, however I am NOT legal to fly a Citation 560 Encore Single pilot or Citation II 550, even though it they are almost identical to the bravo. I am legal to serve as PIC in ANY Citation 500 series provided I have a First Officer.

The 560 Excel was originally intended to be single pilot waivable also, but got the axe due to the difficulty of seeing the right wing tip during taxi from the left seat.

The initial SP checkride must be taken in the aircraft, any recertification can be done in the sim only. Flight safety and Simuflite both offer SP training as well as several other training sites, however FS and Simuflite is the only two that some insurance companies will accept.

Clear as mud right!!!

Hope this answers your question.

KS