Single Pilot CE-500

[HMR]

These SIC's would stick around longer if they were properly paid/trained.

 

[getonit]

Hawker F/O,
you are a d!ckhead. I have better things to do than update my profile on the internet. But since you really want to know. I now have 3300 hours, Citation type rating, fly as PIC on a I and V as well as a King Air. Does that make you feel any better.

 

[beernuts]

Hey Hawker, I don't understand what you are so upset about. I was just trying to ask a question. I do not fly single pilot. You should be able to tell by my question I am not currently qualified to fly a Citation alone. I simply wanted to know if there was any minimum time requirements and who offered the training.
I agree that as long as the copilot has any clue about flying and the airplane it's better than flying it alone. However I also can understand where it can be worse having a clueless FO than just flying alone. I'd rather know that I have to do all the tasks myself than call for things and get a "what, where is that at?" as time is wasting and my attention is divided.
I am not looking at flying a Citation single pilot for a job (or any other plane except a skyhawk for personal trips) If I get a trip in the plane I fly with a copilot PERIOD. If you don't like that then find someone else to fly your plane. That does not mean I can't look at getting a limitation off my certificate. It would be the same if I went to an airline and had a circling in VMC only limitation. I'd look into the possibility of having it removed.
It is more of a resume thing for me than a job requirement. Some day I will fly a seplane ...some day.... and when I finally do I will take the checkride at the ATP level. Is there a need to, no. But why not do things to the best of my abilities? For that matter I probably would never need to add any new categories or classes beyond private level, but does that mean I have to stop there?

 

[G100driver]

Not to pick on ya, but it's hard to do when it's a new face every coupla weeks.

No worries, dude, you are not picking on me. Instead of a new face every week, how about the same one every week

If you are constantly retraining people then perhaps they need an insentive to stay.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Hawker F/O,
you are a d!ckhead. I have better things to do than update my profile on the internet. But since you really want to know. I now have 3300 hours, Citation type rating, fly as PIC on a I and V as well as a King Air. Does that make you feel any better.

Ummmmmm, let me think..................No

 

[G100driver]

.

I disagree. The question is about Citation single-pilot ops. Being an ATP, an A&P or a Sport Pilot doesn't make one qualified to comment IMHO. It's a unique situation, and only those who have been there (of which I are one ) can give an accurate reply.

I wouldn't presume to tell another aviator how to operate an aircraft in which I have no experience. Maybe that makes me the exception?

.

Not disagree for disagreement sake, but I disagree. We can all bring up the subject of safety and marginal operations. The only reason one flies single pilot is because the owner is a tightwad or the CP has a massive ego. Either one makes for a maginal operation.

 

[OviedoBob]

Hey Beernuts:

I'm somewhat like you. Several years ago I got my ATP single engine seaplane rating in a fully equipped Maule in FL. A couple of years later I went to a seaplane operation in Flagler County Airport in FL and got my ME ATP seaplane rating in a Twin Bee (one of those ugly Republic aircraft). I had no reason to get a ATP in both classes of aircraft, other than the fact I wanted to. It was fun, lots of work under the hood, and a sense of accomplishment. I did both events while doing a vacation in FL!

Floats (down and locked)!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

SP in the 550's is not a big deal, they are very tame airplanes as long as the PIC has some good experience. Not that an extra pair of eyes are not always useful, but to be honest, if you cannot fly a 550 single pilot IFR, you don't have any business in any light twin single pilot IFR either. I will take an engine failure in the 550 any day of the week over a failure in a light twin.

Lets face it, the 550 is not a speed demon and has never been mistaken for a real jet. It does what it was intended to do, move people at near jet speeds and still get into a short strip, while operating at near turbo-prop costs.

 

[beernuts]

Can't remember where, how, and what is required to remove the SIC required limitation on the CE-500. Could someone help me out with this please. I'd like to do this if I can with recurrent.

Ok I don't remember asking anything about the sanity, safety, sensibility, or any other things like that. I am just looking for the where, how and what, NOT WHY. If you can't respectfully respond to these few questions please save the bandwidth and just read the posts.

FYI: I would have no problems with the FAA saying any plane requiring a type rating also requires a qualified and typed copilot.
At the same time how many are complaining about the phase out of flight engineers and flight navigators?
Some day the most any of us do will be to ride as passengers or fly on Microsoft

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Alright to try and answer your question.

All the 500's 550's and 560's except for the XL can be flown with the C-500 type. this type is good for 7 airplanes (8 if you count a varient that only includes about 3 hulls)

There is no SIC required type restriction for the 500 series(that I am aware of, doesn't mean it hasn't been issued in the past), you are probably thinking of the 525 series (The CJ, CJ1, CJ2) it has a SP type and a crew type avaliable, But is officially certified as a single pilot airplane on its type certificate.

All the 500 series (Except the XL) can be flown SP. The difference is how you go about it. Some of the 500's are certified as SP, and do not require any special training, some are certified as two pilot birds and require a waiver to fly it SP. Confused yet....it gets worse.

The 550 and 560 series may be flown SP providing you take the SP waiver training and checkride, which must be renewed every twelve months. There is a varient of the 550 that does not require this waiver, however the varient does take a considerable weight penalty. (down to 12,500 MTOW) I do not remember the designator for this varient, but as I understand it, only a very few remain in operation, most have been converted back into the standard 550 since the waiver is avalible. (The conversion is mainly paperwork only and simply resets the max weights for the plane)

Still following me....don't worry heres more to confuse you.

The 550 and 560 SP waivers are Aircraft specific. For example, I am waivered to fly the Citation 550 Bravo Single pilot, however I am NOT legal to fly a Citation 560 Encore Single pilot or Citation II 550, even though it they are almost identical to the bravo. I am legal to serve as PIC in ANY Citation 500 series provided I have a First Officer.

The 560 Excel was originally intended to be single pilot waivable also, but got the axe due to the difficulty of seeing the right wing tip during taxi from the left seat.

The initial SP checkride must be taken in the aircraft, any recertification can be done in the sim only. Flight safety and Simuflite both offer SP training as well as several other training sites, however FS and Simuflite is the only two that some insurance companies will accept.

Clear as mud right!!!

Hope this answers your question.

KS

 

[beernuts]

Finally an answer not just b*tch*ng. THANK YOU. I do have a SIC required limitation on my cert. The examiner said it was because without it I'd be legal to fly the 501 and 551 single pilot and haven't demonstrated single pilot proficiency and because the 500 I did the training and checkride in had the waiver you spoke of so technically it was legal to fly single pilot if the pilot was qualified. (though I don't remember them specifing how to be qualified to do so)
Basically as my first (and only) type rating this part of the "fire hose" was used for cooling off not drinking out of so to speak.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

You may want to give FS a call, During my training and recurrents I have not run across a senario that would limit me on the 501 and 551. According to what I have been told and read, you should be legal to fly the 501 and 551 SP without any further training, that is the whole point of having the airplanes certified SP. The 525's have different types though. Maybe the examiner was confusing the two.

My initial type in the 500 series also included doing the SP waiver training so maybe since I was doing that, they may have made no mention of the restriction. However as far as I know there is no reason for you to have that restriction on your type.

Any how as I said above, I would call FS and chat with their Citation instructors and examiner. In ICT a guy named Tim Thorpe runs the 500 department and is an examiner. It is possible that the DE you had didn't know all the rules on it (or I don't!!) For what its worth, there are FAA guys out there that have no idea that there is an SP waiver avalible for the 550's. I had one approach me one day all bursting with excitement since he thought he was going to get to bust me for flying around without an F/O. All examiners are not created equal.

 

[some_dude]

If you did not demonstrate single pilot proficiency on your initial type rating checkride, you may (or do) have a limitation on your license. When I did my CE-500 type rating in a CE-501, back in, I think 1989, the examiner required me to do the entire checkride single pilot or have the limitation. Now, I believe they only require you to "demonstrate single pilot proficiency" which can be a takeoff, engine failure, and an approach.

Now, what to do about it? I would call FSI or Simuflite or wherever you train, ask to speak to the program manager, and ask them. I assume they should be able to test you on single pilot proficiency on your next checkride and remove the limitation.

However, given they are 142 and have to have an approved training program for everything, it may be more difficult than it would appear.

The CE-500 type rating is a mess, because the FAA had not really thought out the single pilot thing at the time. I believe (I could be wrong) that if you take your type check in a CE-550 (2 pilots required), you will get an unrestricted CE-500 type rating. If you take your type check in a CE-551 (1 pilot required) and do not demonstrate single pilot proficiency, you get a type rating with a restriction. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? (haha)

 

[FlierDude]

During my training and recurrents I have not run across a senario that would limit me on the 501 and 551.

It even varies by training establishment and the local Feds. When I got typed in the 500 series, I had lots of time in it and had been to FSI initial a few years prior. At Simcom, the instructor couldn't promise an SP ride due to it being an initial type and their agreement with their FSDO. After a month, he came to our home airport and gave a quick ride and sign-off.
With the training establishments I've talked to, they all seem to agree that the SP waiver on an initial type ride is the exception. If you have previous types, you can get it no problem.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

It even varies by training establishment and the local Feds. When I got typed in the 500 series, I had lots of time in it and had been to FSI initial a few years prior. At Simcom, the instructor couldn't promise an SP ride due to it being an initial type and their agreement with their FSDO. After a month, he came to our home airport and gave a quick ride and sign-off.
With the training establishments I've talked to, they all seem to agree that the SP waiver on an initial type ride is the exception. If you have previous types, you can get it no problem.

When I did my initial with FS, they did have some minimum requirements for both the type and the SP, (over and above the FAA SP requirements) I do not know exactly what they were since I exceeded all of the minimums by a large amount, however my Sim Partner was a low time guy (about 800 hours) and FS refused to give him the type even though he clearly had the skills to pass the checkride and was going to serve as SIC only in his company). The instructor and examiner tried to get FS to let him get the type, but upper managment would not go for it.

As flier said, alot of it has to do with the controlling FSDO and the training departments agreement with them.

Again I would recommend calling FS in Wichita. They seem to be the ones most closely associated with the factory(across the field from the Citation assembly line) and seem to be the most up to date on Citation certification and training.