SIC in a Navjo how?

[Diesel]

Not really sure where to put this. Maybe you guys can help.

How do you log SIC in a Navajo? Was told the company has a letter from the FAA? How does that work.

I did a search but couldn't come up with any real answers. Yes i know it's PFT but I'm trying to figure out how they log this.

It just doesn't make sense.

 

[MarineGrunt]

The letter from the FAA gives absolutely no ground for the company's employees to log SIC time. The letter only states that they are authorized to operate with a SIC in their operation. Key word, "AUTHORIZED," not "REQUIRED." The regs say that to log SIC you have to be a REQUIRED crew member. The company in question is probably just trying to trick some into PFT or to cut their insurance costs.

However, if you dive a little into the part 135 regs, if there is no autopilot on the aircraft or the autopilot is not "certified" (I'm not sure what certified criteria are) then a second in command is required for IFR operations. I think there might a another reason or two, but this is basically the only legal way to log it in a Navajo.

 

[Diesel]

That's what I figured but I was told since there is a letter from the FAA they can log the sic. Sounded fishhhhhhy to me.

Plus paying money for that is fishy.

 

[HS125]

Not really sure where to put this. Maybe you guys can help.

How do you log SIC in a Navajo? Was told the company has a letter from the FAA? How does that work.

I did a search but couldn't come up with any real answers. Yes i know it's PFT but I'm trying to figure out how they log this.

It just doesn't make sense.

§ 135.101 Second in command required under IFR.

Except as provided in §135.105, no person may operate an aircraft carrying passengers under IFR unless there is a second in command in the aircraft.

[Doc. No. 28743, 62 FR 42374, Aug. 6, 1997]


§ 135.105 Exception to second in command requirement: Approval for use of autopilot system.

(a) Except as provided in §§135.99 and 135.111, unless two pilots are required by this chapter for operations under VFR, a person may operate an aircraft without a second in command, if it is equipped with an operative approved autopilot system and the use of that system is authorized by appropriate operations specifications. No certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as a pilot in command under this section of an aircraft operated in a commuter operation, as defined in part 119 of this chapter unless that person has at least 100 hours pilot in command flight time in the make and model of aircraft to be flown and has met all other applicable requirements of this part.

(b) The certificate holder may apply for an amendment of its operations specifications to authorize the use of an autopilot system in place of a second in command.

(c) The Administrator issues an amendment to the operations specifications authorizing the use of an autopilot system, in place of a second in command, if—

(1) The autopilot is capable of operating the aircraft controls to maintain flight and maneuver it about the three axes; and

(2) The certificate holder shows, to the satisfaction of the Administrator, that operations using the autopilot system can be conducted safely and in compliance with this part.
The amendment contains any conditions or limitations on the use of the autopilot system that the Administrator determines are needed in the interest of safety.

[Doc. No. 16097, 43 FR 46783, Oct. 10, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 135–3, 45 FR 7542, Feb. 4, 1980; Amdt. 135–58, 60 FR 65939, Dec. 20, 1995]

135.101 requires an SIC for all IFR passenger operations. Under the provisions of 135.105, an operator my be authorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC. If an operator is autorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC the operator is isued Opsec A015. Even though an operator may be authorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC, it does mean that the operator can not use an SIC as long as that SIC is properly trained and checked.

Also, an SIC is required regardless whether or not an operator has Opspec A015 if that operator chooses to operate using two pilot rules such as scheduled flight time exceeding 8 hours.

If an operator assigns a pilot as an SIC to a IFR passenger flight, and that pilot has been propperly trained and checked that pilot can leagally log that flight time as SIC.

 

[MarineGrunt]

135.101 requires an SIC for all IFR passenger operations. Under the provisions of 135.105, an operator my be authorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC. If an operator is autorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC the operator is isued Opsec A015. Even though an operator may be authorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC, it does mean that the operator can not use an SIC as long as that SIC is properly trained and checked.

Wouldn't this mean that an SIC is not required? Maybe he can USE an SIC but doesn't need one.

61.51
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
^Navajo does not require two pilots (of course we all know that)
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
^Unless the airplane does not have an approved autopilot, the above does not apply either.

So under what grounds can you legally log SIC?

 

[414Flyer]

Well as stated (assuming it is part 135), 135 requires an SIC if carrying passengers under IFR.

An autopilot MAY be used in lieu of a SIC. Doesnt say an autopilot prevents you from using an SIC.

 

[Princedietrich]

There are three situations in the 135 world where SIC time is loggable and pefectly LEGAL in a Navajo.

1. IFR 135 operations with passengers, unless there's an autopilot and the PIC has been checked out on it

2. Certain operations dicted by company ops specs, like taking off below standard takeoff minimums.

3. If an SIC is ASSIGNED to the flight by the Chief Pilot.

If the Chief tells you there must be an SIC on that flight and assigns you as such, SIC time is loggable with no heartburn whatsoever.

 

[414Flyer]

Even if the PIC is checked out on the autopilot and it is there, that does not preclude having an SIC, the way it is worded. Of course SIC has to have a 135 checkout and been thru a training program. But doesnt say anywhere that if there is an autopilot, that having an SIC is prohibited.

 

[FN FAL]

So how much SIC Navajo time to do you need to get in the regionals nowadays?

 

[Trogdor]

How about this: if it is PFT you shouldn't be there in the first #%*@ing place

 

[FN FAL]

How about this: if it is PFT you shouldn't be there in the first #%*@ing place

that's just it, any place that had SIC training for 135 in a Navajo, it's going to be pay for training.

 

[Bandit60]

Years ago when I was flying small 135 operations, the FAA made us take a 135 sic checkride. They said if the paying customer requests a second pilot to be on the flight, the flight now requires two pilots, therefore you have to have a qualified sic.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong but I am telling you what actually happend to us.

 

[FN FAL]

Years ago when I was flying small 135 operations, the FAA made us take a 135 sic checkride. They said if the paying customer requests a second pilot to be on the flight, the flight now requires two pilots, therefore you have to have a qualified sic.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong but I am telling you what actually happend to us.

Your company's problems must have been for other reasons, we flew second pilot on the flight for insurance reasons and he went on the manifest as a passenger. This second pilot was a multi, commercial, instrument rated and never touched the controls, couldn't log the time and was paid his 150.00 a day plus his monthly base. I did a lot of right seat time in F-90, B-100 and Conquests...not logable, but you got paid, which is the main thing.

He was there simply to meet the insurance requirements of the passengers. I'm thinking you guys were logging the time and your operator was in hot water so they had to come up with an "sic program".

Was the company charging for that right seat time? Maybe that was the deal.

 

[starchkr]

that's just it, any place that had SIC training for 135 in a Navajo, it's going to be pay for training.

Ummm...NO!!

We pay 16K yr(plus full bene's) to have a non 135 qual'd person sit SIC in BE-58's, C-310's and Navajos to build their TT to meet 135 mins. How is that PFT???? Oh you mean the company pays the employee for training...that must be it...

61.51
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
^Navajo does not require two pilots (of course we all know that)
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
^Unless the airplane does not have an approved autopilot, the above does not apply either.
Marinegrunt...you answered your own question by posting the regs...61.51 (2) ...the last part says..."is required under the regulations under which the flight is being conducted." This says that you can't do it under 91, but under 135 you can...I know the regs for 135 SIC requirement were posted above. You must have one in ANY a/c if you carry pax in IFR. The autopilot part is just giving them the ability to "replace" the SIC with an autopilot...this in no way says that you still cannot use the SIC on those flights, it just gives the operator a way out of having to pay for two pilots...however, once that ap gets MEL'd, you must have an SIC on board again. Also, the FAA has given certain companies the option(in the form of a letter) of "assigning" SIC's to flights, and thus making them "required" crew members no matter what the situation. We have one, and we use it often when we hire guys just below the 135 mins.

 

[Bandit60]

Your company's problems must have been for other reasons, we flew second pilot on the flight for insurance reasons and he went on the manifest as a passenger. This second pilot was a multi, commercial, instrument rated and never touched the controls, couldn't log the time and was paid his 150.00 a day plus his monthly base. I did a lot of right seat time in F-90, B-100 and Conquests...not logable, but you got paid, which is the main thing.

He was there simply to meet the insurance requirements of the passengers. I'm thinking you guys were logging the time and your operator was in hot water so they had to come up with an "sic program".

Was the company charging for that right seat time? Maybe that was the deal.

No the company did not have a problem, all the 135 operators in that FSDO had to comply the same way. All the pilots were paid. This was not a work for free deal at all. It was a good little company to work for and was doing as they were told by the FAA. It was not an insurance thing..as I said before it was from the FAA. The last thing my company wanted to do is spend the extra money on actual checkrides if they were not needed.

The second in command was authorized to touch the controls and was on the manifest as a crew member.

 

[some_dude]

As most everyone else has said, if it is 135, IFR, passenger carrying, and the SIC is properly qualified, then they can log it. No question about this.

If it is cargo, then I don't see how they can log it.

Not really sure where to put this. Maybe you guys can help.

How do you log SIC in a Navajo? Was told the company has a letter from the FAA? How does that work.

I did a search but couldn't come up with any real answers. Yes i know it's PFT but I'm trying to figure out how they log this.

It just doesn't make sense.

 

[FN FAL]

Ummm...NO!!

We pay 16K yr(plus full bene's) to have a non 135 qual'd person sit SIC in BE-58's, C-310's and Navajos to build their TT to meet 135 mins. How is that PFT???? Oh you mean the company pays the employee for training...that must be it...

61.51
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
^Navajo does not require two pilots (of course we all know that)
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
^Unless the airplane does not have an approved autopilot, the above does not apply either.
Marinegrunt...you answered your own question by posting the regs...61.51 (2) ...the last part says..."is required under the regulations under which the flight is being conducted." This says that you can't do it under 91, but under 135 you can...I know the regs for 135 SIC requirement were posted above. You must have one in ANY a/c if you carry pax in IFR. The autopilot part is just giving them the ability to "replace" the SIC with an autopilot...this in no way says that you still cannot use the SIC on those flights, it just gives the operator a way out of having to pay for two pilots...however, once that ap gets MEL'd, you must have an SIC on board again. Also, the FAA has given certain companies the option(in the form of a letter) of "assigning" SIC's to flights, and thus making them "required" crew members no matter what the situation. We have one, and we use it often when we hire guys just below the 135 mins.

What's your baggage? I have no idea what you're babbling about. You got 16K a year to right seat non-135 and I got mid thirties, plus dental, medical, vacation and sick leave to do the same thing. Plus, we didn't hire time builders...you had to have at least double 135 pic mins to get hired there.

 

[FN FAL]

Years ago when I was flying small 135 operations, the FAA made us take a 135 sic checkride. They said if the paying customer requests a second pilot to be on the flight, the flight now requires two pilots, therefore you have to have a qualified sic.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong but I am telling you what actually happend to us.

Too bad your operator was too cheap to have a decent aviation attorney on staff to prevent that from happening.

 

[Bandit60]

HEY FN FAL

READ MY WORDS...Everyone in the FSDO district was having to comply with the FSDO not just my company, but I forgot you know better than the FSDO. Maybe I should have hired you to defend our company and the many others in that district

 

[starchkr]

What's your baggage? I have no idea what you're babbling about. You got 16K a year to right seat non-135 and I got mid thirties, plus dental, medical, vacation and sick leave to do the same thing. Plus, we didn't hire time builders...you had to have at least double 135 pic mins to get hired there.

Are you sure you are bright enough to fly there chief, or are you the next 350driver?!

Apparently someone is not capable of reading before speaking...we are 135(DUH) and the pay is better than instructing, plus we offer bene's(same ones you quoted above by the way). I was not a time builder, unless you consider 5 1/2 years here timebuilding...and apparently, you yourself don't even comprehend what we are talking about. You specifically state that your company did not hire with less than double 135 mins(whoopidy doo), but you preceeded that by saying you got hired to do the same thing i did (fly right seat until i met 135 mins)but got 30k+...hmmm...what gives??? Are you confused on what you really did in this lifetime???

I have held my breath on all the posts you have been making on FI so far, but really, this time i just can't. You have to be one of the most tactless, inconsiderate people i know...like i mentioned earlier, i almost think you may be a 350driver twin.

I'm done now...

some_dude...sorry about the rant, but i really just wanted to answer your question and then got side tracked by some moron who knows absolutely nothing. Dangit, there i go again...calm down....

Ok, as far as 135 freight goes, there are a few instances when you are capable of flying and logging SIC time in a small prop... First, when ever we have a jumpseater, the a/c turns into pax carrying. We must follow different guidlines than when we are not flying with riders, and therefore either the SIC or autopilot is required. The second is when the Chief Pilot assigns a second pilot to a certain run/flight...by assigning that pilot to the flight they are required crewmembers which allows the logging of the time. A lot of poeple do not understand that, but we do have proof from the FAA and our local FSDO(columbus) that we can do this and that they know we do it, and that it is all legal.