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SIC in a Navjo how?

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Diesel

TEB Hilton resident
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,394
Not really sure where to put this. Maybe you guys can help.

How do you log SIC in a Navajo? Was told the company has a letter from the FAA? How does that work.

I did a search but couldn't come up with any real answers. Yes i know it's PFT but I'm trying to figure out how they log this.

It just doesn't make sense.
 
The letter from the FAA gives absolutely no ground for the company's employees to log SIC time. The letter only states that they are authorized to operate with a SIC in their operation. Key word, "AUTHORIZED," not "REQUIRED." The regs say that to log SIC you have to be a REQUIRED crew member. The company in question is probably just trying to trick some into PFT or to cut their insurance costs.

However, if you dive a little into the part 135 regs, if there is no autopilot on the aircraft or the autopilot is not "certified" (I'm not sure what certified criteria are) then a second in command is required for IFR operations. I think there might a another reason or two, but this is basically the only legal way to log it in a Navajo.
 
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That's what I figured but I was told since there is a letter from the FAA they can log the sic. Sounded fishhhhhhy to me.

Plus paying money for that is fishy.
 
Diesel said:
Not really sure where to put this. Maybe you guys can help.

How do you log SIC in a Navajo? Was told the company has a letter from the FAA? How does that work.

I did a search but couldn't come up with any real answers. Yes i know it's PFT but I'm trying to figure out how they log this.

It just doesn't make sense.


§ 135.101 Second in command required under IFR.

Except as provided in §135.105, no person may operate an aircraft carrying passengers under IFR unless there is a second in command in the aircraft.

[Doc. No. 28743, 62 FR 42374, Aug. 6, 1997]


§ 135.105 Exception to second in command requirement: Approval for use of autopilot system.

(a) Except as provided in §§135.99 and 135.111, unless two pilots are required by this chapter for operations under VFR, a person may operate an aircraft without a second in command, if it is equipped with an operative approved autopilot system and the use of that system is authorized by appropriate operations specifications. No certificate holder may use any person, nor may any person serve, as a pilot in command under this section of an aircraft operated in a commuter operation, as defined in part 119 of this chapter unless that person has at least 100 hours pilot in command flight time in the make and model of aircraft to be flown and has met all other applicable requirements of this part.

(b) The certificate holder may apply for an amendment of its operations specifications to authorize the use of an autopilot system in place of a second in command.

(c) The Administrator issues an amendment to the operations specifications authorizing the use of an autopilot system, in place of a second in command, if—

(1) The autopilot is capable of operating the aircraft controls to maintain flight and maneuver it about the three axes; and

(2) The certificate holder shows, to the satisfaction of the Administrator, that operations using the autopilot system can be conducted safely and in compliance with this part.
The amendment contains any conditions or limitations on the use of the autopilot system that the Administrator determines are needed in the interest of safety.

[Doc. No. 16097, 43 FR 46783, Oct. 10, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 135–3, 45 FR 7542, Feb. 4, 1980; Amdt. 135–58, 60 FR 65939, Dec. 20, 1995]

135.101 requires an SIC for all IFR passenger operations. Under the provisions of 135.105, an operator my be authorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC. If an operator is autorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC the operator is isued Opsec A015. Even though an operator may be authorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC, it does mean that the operator can not use an SIC as long as that SIC is properly trained and checked.

Also, an SIC is required regardless whether or not an operator has Opspec A015 if that operator chooses to operate using two pilot rules such as scheduled flight time exceeding 8 hours.

If an operator assigns a pilot as an SIC to a IFR passenger flight, and that pilot has been propperly trained and checked that pilot can leagally log that flight time as SIC.
 
HS125 said:
135.101 requires an SIC for all IFR passenger operations. Under the provisions of 135.105, an operator my be authorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC. If an operator is autorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC the operator is isued Opsec A015. Even though an operator may be authorized to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC, it does mean that the operator can not use an SIC as long as that SIC is properly trained and checked.
Wouldn't this mean that an SIC is not required? Maybe he can USE an SIC but doesn't need one.

61.51
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
^Navajo does not require two pilots (of course we all know that)
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
^Unless the airplane does not have an approved autopilot, the above does not apply either.

So under what grounds can you legally log SIC?
 
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Well as stated (assuming it is part 135), 135 requires an SIC if carrying passengers under IFR.

An autopilot MAY be used in lieu of a SIC. Doesnt say an autopilot prevents you from using an SIC.
 
There are three situations in the 135 world where SIC time is loggable and pefectly LEGAL in a Navajo.

1. IFR 135 operations with passengers, unless there's an autopilot and the PIC has been checked out on it

2. Certain operations dicted by company ops specs, like taking off below standard takeoff minimums.

3. If an SIC is ASSIGNED to the flight by the Chief Pilot.

If the Chief tells you there must be an SIC on that flight and assigns you as such, SIC time is loggable with no heartburn whatsoever.
 
Even if the PIC is checked out on the autopilot and it is there, that does not preclude having an SIC, the way it is worded. Of course SIC has to have a 135 checkout and been thru a training program. But doesnt say anywhere that if there is an autopilot, that having an SIC is prohibited.
 
So how much SIC Navajo time to do you need to get in the regionals nowadays?
 

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