SIC in a Navjo how?

[FN FAL]

How about this: if it is PFT you shouldn't be there in the first #%*@ing place

that's just it, any place that had SIC training for 135 in a Navajo, it's going to be pay for training.

 

[Bandit60]

Years ago when I was flying small 135 operations, the FAA made us take a 135 sic checkride. They said if the paying customer requests a second pilot to be on the flight, the flight now requires two pilots, therefore you have to have a qualified sic.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong but I am telling you what actually happend to us.

 

[FN FAL]

Years ago when I was flying small 135 operations, the FAA made us take a 135 sic checkride. They said if the paying customer requests a second pilot to be on the flight, the flight now requires two pilots, therefore you have to have a qualified sic.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong but I am telling you what actually happend to us.

Your company's problems must have been for other reasons, we flew second pilot on the flight for insurance reasons and he went on the manifest as a passenger. This second pilot was a multi, commercial, instrument rated and never touched the controls, couldn't log the time and was paid his 150.00 a day plus his monthly base. I did a lot of right seat time in F-90, B-100 and Conquests...not logable, but you got paid, which is the main thing.

He was there simply to meet the insurance requirements of the passengers. I'm thinking you guys were logging the time and your operator was in hot water so they had to come up with an "sic program".

Was the company charging for that right seat time? Maybe that was the deal.

 

[starchkr]

that's just it, any place that had SIC training for 135 in a Navajo, it's going to be pay for training.

Ummm...NO!!

We pay 16K yr(plus full bene's) to have a non 135 qual'd person sit SIC in BE-58's, C-310's and Navajos to build their TT to meet 135 mins. How is that PFT???? Oh you mean the company pays the employee for training...that must be it...

61.51
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
^Navajo does not require two pilots (of course we all know that)
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
^Unless the airplane does not have an approved autopilot, the above does not apply either.
Marinegrunt...you answered your own question by posting the regs...61.51 (2) ...the last part says..."is required under the regulations under which the flight is being conducted." This says that you can't do it under 91, but under 135 you can...I know the regs for 135 SIC requirement were posted above. You must have one in ANY a/c if you carry pax in IFR. The autopilot part is just giving them the ability to "replace" the SIC with an autopilot...this in no way says that you still cannot use the SIC on those flights, it just gives the operator a way out of having to pay for two pilots...however, once that ap gets MEL'd, you must have an SIC on board again. Also, the FAA has given certain companies the option(in the form of a letter) of "assigning" SIC's to flights, and thus making them "required" crew members no matter what the situation. We have one, and we use it often when we hire guys just below the 135 mins.

 

[Bandit60]

Your company's problems must have been for other reasons, we flew second pilot on the flight for insurance reasons and he went on the manifest as a passenger. This second pilot was a multi, commercial, instrument rated and never touched the controls, couldn't log the time and was paid his 150.00 a day plus his monthly base. I did a lot of right seat time in F-90, B-100 and Conquests...not logable, but you got paid, which is the main thing.

He was there simply to meet the insurance requirements of the passengers. I'm thinking you guys were logging the time and your operator was in hot water so they had to come up with an "sic program".

Was the company charging for that right seat time? Maybe that was the deal.

No the company did not have a problem, all the 135 operators in that FSDO had to comply the same way. All the pilots were paid. This was not a work for free deal at all. It was a good little company to work for and was doing as they were told by the FAA. It was not an insurance thing..as I said before it was from the FAA. The last thing my company wanted to do is spend the extra money on actual checkrides if they were not needed.

The second in command was authorized to touch the controls and was on the manifest as a crew member.

 

[some_dude]

As most everyone else has said, if it is 135, IFR, passenger carrying, and the SIC is properly qualified, then they can log it. No question about this.

If it is cargo, then I don't see how they can log it.

Not really sure where to put this. Maybe you guys can help.

How do you log SIC in a Navajo? Was told the company has a letter from the FAA? How does that work.

I did a search but couldn't come up with any real answers. Yes i know it's PFT but I'm trying to figure out how they log this.

It just doesn't make sense.

 

[FN FAL]

Ummm...NO!!

We pay 16K yr(plus full bene's) to have a non 135 qual'd person sit SIC in BE-58's, C-310's and Navajos to build their TT to meet 135 mins. How is that PFT???? Oh you mean the company pays the employee for training...that must be it...

61.51
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
^Navajo does not require two pilots (of course we all know that)
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
^Unless the airplane does not have an approved autopilot, the above does not apply either.
Marinegrunt...you answered your own question by posting the regs...61.51 (2) ...the last part says..."is required under the regulations under which the flight is being conducted." This says that you can't do it under 91, but under 135 you can...I know the regs for 135 SIC requirement were posted above. You must have one in ANY a/c if you carry pax in IFR. The autopilot part is just giving them the ability to "replace" the SIC with an autopilot...this in no way says that you still cannot use the SIC on those flights, it just gives the operator a way out of having to pay for two pilots...however, once that ap gets MEL'd, you must have an SIC on board again. Also, the FAA has given certain companies the option(in the form of a letter) of "assigning" SIC's to flights, and thus making them "required" crew members no matter what the situation. We have one, and we use it often when we hire guys just below the 135 mins.

What's your baggage? I have no idea what you're babbling about. You got 16K a year to right seat non-135 and I got mid thirties, plus dental, medical, vacation and sick leave to do the same thing. Plus, we didn't hire time builders...you had to have at least double 135 pic mins to get hired there.

 

[FN FAL]

Years ago when I was flying small 135 operations, the FAA made us take a 135 sic checkride. They said if the paying customer requests a second pilot to be on the flight, the flight now requires two pilots, therefore you have to have a qualified sic.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong but I am telling you what actually happend to us.

Too bad your operator was too cheap to have a decent aviation attorney on staff to prevent that from happening.

 

[Bandit60]

HEY FN FAL

READ MY WORDS...Everyone in the FSDO district was having to comply with the FSDO not just my company, but I forgot you know better than the FSDO. Maybe I should have hired you to defend our company and the many others in that district

 

[starchkr]

What's your baggage? I have no idea what you're babbling about. You got 16K a year to right seat non-135 and I got mid thirties, plus dental, medical, vacation and sick leave to do the same thing. Plus, we didn't hire time builders...you had to have at least double 135 pic mins to get hired there.

Are you sure you are bright enough to fly there chief, or are you the next 350driver?!

Apparently someone is not capable of reading before speaking...we are 135(DUH) and the pay is better than instructing, plus we offer bene's(same ones you quoted above by the way). I was not a time builder, unless you consider 5 1/2 years here timebuilding...and apparently, you yourself don't even comprehend what we are talking about. You specifically state that your company did not hire with less than double 135 mins(whoopidy doo), but you preceeded that by saying you got hired to do the same thing i did (fly right seat until i met 135 mins)but got 30k+...hmmm...what gives??? Are you confused on what you really did in this lifetime???

I have held my breath on all the posts you have been making on FI so far, but really, this time i just can't. You have to be one of the most tactless, inconsiderate people i know...like i mentioned earlier, i almost think you may be a 350driver twin.

I'm done now...

some_dude...sorry about the rant, but i really just wanted to answer your question and then got side tracked by some moron who knows absolutely nothing. Dangit, there i go again...calm down....

Ok, as far as 135 freight goes, there are a few instances when you are capable of flying and logging SIC time in a small prop... First, when ever we have a jumpseater, the a/c turns into pax carrying. We must follow different guidlines than when we are not flying with riders, and therefore either the SIC or autopilot is required. The second is when the Chief Pilot assigns a second pilot to a certain run/flight...by assigning that pilot to the flight they are required crewmembers which allows the logging of the time. A lot of poeple do not understand that, but we do have proof from the FAA and our local FSDO(columbus) that we can do this and that they know we do it, and that it is all legal.