Shuttle America / 2007 CLE over run

[Soverytired]

Also... inability to call fatigue... and the choice to not use GS out minima.

In other words... Unprofessional!!!

The NSTB and NASA studies have conclusively proven that there are cases where pilots are fatigued and don't even know it.

Clearly, their "choice" to use GS out minima and poor crew coordination was heavily influenced by fatigue. Remember, some levels of fatigue are as bad or worse than being intoxicated.

I'm not picking a fight here. The fact is that failing to call "fatigue" is not necessarily a lack of character, guts or unprofessionalism.

There are valid reasons that the FAA has established bottle-to-throttle time rules and max blood alcohol limits. By following these rules, it's impossible for a pilot to arrive on the job intoxicated.

The comparable FAA duty time/rest requirement rules do NOT guarantee the lack of fatigue for pilots . . . far from it. NASA, the NTSB, ALPA, and most pilots know this, but the FAA fails to re-write rules that could virtually eliminate this elusive yet very real safety hazard.

=====================

If fatigued and you know it, certainly call in "fatigued." But what do you do when you've taken off "ok" but are "fatigued" en-route . . . due to your 8-hr reduced rest overnight the night before and are into your 5th leg of a 12 hour day?

Your stance seems to suggest you have never been in this situation. You are quite fortunate. Maybe you could cut a little slack to those who have, eh?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The NSTB and NASA studies have conclusively proven that there are cases where pilots are fatigued and don't even know it.

And what is the FAA and NTSB doing about helping pilots recognize fatigue.

A cozy mx relationship with carrier?

Clearly, their "choice" to use GS out minima and poor crew coordination was heavily influenced by fatigue. Remember, some levels of fatigue are as bad or worse than being intoxicated.

I disagree. That was choice. If a pilot consistently operates the same way then when fatigue is a factor s/he will default to common past practice. Not flying below minimums

That is the arguement with aiming for the 1000ft marker everytime. If you make each landing conditional... for example.. "I got 10000ft of runway its sunny and dry...does it matter if I touchdown in the touchdown zone?"

Why make it hard on yourself ....when there is ice or low vis or both and you have to rethink your technique.

I'm not picking a fight here. The fact is that failing to call "fatigue" is not necessarily a lack of character, guts or unprofessionalism.

It certianly is a lack of judgement. In addition if a pilot flies for a carrier that can get away with intimidation, doesn't have a solid safety structure and ability to enforce "wrongful termination" and pilot pushing then pilots will fly fatigue. In the end its a choice and the responsibility we accept as PIC.

There are valid reasons that the FAA has established bottle-to-throttle time rules and max blood alcohol limits. By following these rules, it's impossible for a pilot to arrive on the job intoxicated.

Wrong. Say that to the NWA crew in 1990.

The comparable FAA duty time/rest requirement rules do NOT guarantee the lack of fatigue for pilots . . . far from it. NASA, the NTSB, ALPA, and most pilots know this, but the FAA fails to re-write rules that could virtually eliminate this elusive yet very real safety hazard.

Do you know why?

If fatigued and you know it, certainly call in "fatigued." But what do you do when you've taken off "ok" but are "fatigued" en-route due to your 8-hr reduced rest overnight the night before and are into your 5th leg of a 12 hour day?

Through professionalism, experience, judgement and a support system pilots don't.

Easier said than done.

That is similiar to saying...What if you fly into a dark cloud and realize your in a T-strom.

 

[NEDude]

And the ATA wants the FAA to reduce rest requirements for regular line holders and eliminate rest requirements for reserves.

 

[Soverytired]

Do you know why?

Through professionalism, experience, judgment and a support system pilots don't.

Easier said than done.

Well, thanks for keeping it professional in your reply. Rather than go at it point by point (which would probably be "pointless"), we'll have to agree to disagree on most points.

With one exception. By your own admission (re: "experience"), the only way you'd ever realize that you pushed the limit too far and have put yourself in a "fatigued" flying condition is to have done it. You may learn from it, but for the duration of that flight you're screwed.

In actuality, you've probably already flown fatigued, muddled through and never even realized it. On a normal day with a good co-pilot, how would you even tell?

The NTSB has no regulatory authority or these changes would have been made a decade ago. The FAA, as you say, is throughly in bed with big business.

However, the "I can tell when I'm fatigued, 100% of the time, and I can overcome it by sheer force of will if I have to .. . plus I've done this a million times before" attitude of some pilots isn't helping them make changes any faster.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well, thanks for keeping it professional in your reply. Rather than go at it point by point (which would probably be "pointless"), we'll have to agree to disagree on most points.

With one exception. By your own admission (re: "experience"), the only way you'd ever realize that you pushed the limit too far and have put yourself in a "fatigued" flying condition is to have done it. You may learn from it, but for the duration of that flight you're screwed.

In actuality, you've probably already flown fatigued, muddled through and never even realized it. On a normal day with a good co-pilot, how would you even tell?

The NTSB has no regulatory authority or these changes would have been made a decade ago. The FAA, as you say, is throughly in bed with big business.

However, the "I can tell when I'm fatigued, 100% of the time, and I can overcome it by sheer force of will if I have to .. . plus I've done this a million times before" attitude of some pilots isn't helping them make changes any faster.

You seem to want to put the cause of this event all on fatigue.

Even if I were fatigued... I use GS out minima, land in the TDZE and use TR and brakes.

 

[rogerwilcoout]

Yeah, since the "adults" have done much, much better (How about United 173 or Eastern 401. Both from the "Good-Old Days." Both simple light problems).

At least there weren't any fatalities in this accident.

You mean kinda like whena crew departs the wrong runway and crashes?

 

[Caspian27]

You mean kinda like whena crew departs the wrong runway and crashes?

What exactly are you alluding to? The LEX Comair crash? I don't work for Comair, so I'm not exactly sure what you're aiming at here.

Regional aircraft have been involved in crashes too. My point was that ALL pilots, mainline & regional have been involved in needless accidents over the years. It has nothing to do with age or experience.

Additionally, your profile says you fly the E-170 so you're a REGIONAL pilot. I was just defending regional pilots against a baseless post.

(See the original post I quoted and maybe it will make sense.)

 

[Soverytired]

You seem to want to put the cause of this event all on fatigue.

Even if I were fatigued... I use GS out minima, land in the TDZE and use TR and brakes.

Would you? What if you were unknowingly hypoxic due to a carbon monoxide leak in the ducts? What if you had an bad reaction to a medication you'd taken during flight?

Can you say with medical certainty that your judgment wouldn't be impaired, and your performance decreased as long as you relied on past good habits and professionalism?

Fatigue is no different. At least according to everyone who's ever studied it. Pilot's who are great in the sim start to fall apart after 14 hours no matter how good they are. The same thing happens to pilots who fly under conditions simulating accumulated "sleep debt".

So yeah, I'm willing to say that pretty much all of this stemmed directly from fatigue. And I think the NSTB, by repeatedly referencing it in their report, are doing the same thing.

 

[skyaddict]

(NTSB) "A fatigue policy that allows flight crewmembers to
call in as fatigued without fear of reprisals would be
an effective method for countering fatigue during
flight operations."

This should absolutely, positively be the case. It is policy at my employer and, although unrealistic duty limits inferior to truckdrivers are still the achilles heel of air crew fatigue, a no-fault fatigue policy makes a world of difference because the schedulers ultimately are powerless if you need to pull that card. No carpet dance, no "but..." or "well you're going to have to talk to....".

Every regional airline memo on attendance policy should be made the laughing stock it deserves to be.

 

[regionaltard]

You seem to want to put the cause of this event all on fatigue.

Even if I were fatigued... I use GS out minima, land in the TDZE and use TR and brakes.

You seem to claiming that you, as the avatar of Trade Unionism and Pilot Professionalism, are immune to the effects of fatigue. I'm calling B.S. on that one.

Whether or not a more experienced, more disciplined, better-drilled crew would have achieved a different outcome is certainly open to debate; the NTSB did not give these guys a free pass. What's important is that they recognized the very real possibility that fatigue played a significant role in pushing a real-world crew to the tipping point beyond which they were unable to cope with the demands of the operation they were conducting.

 

[trainer8]

Would you? What if you were unknowingly hypoxic due to a carbon monoxide leak in the ducts? What if you had an bad reaction to a medication you'd taken during flight?

Can you say with medical certainty that your judgment wouldn't be impaired, and your performance decreased as long as you relied on past good habits and professionalism?

Fatigue is no different. At least according to everyone who's ever studied it. Pilot's who are great in the sim start to fall apart after 14 hours no matter how good they are. The same thing happens to pilots who fly under conditions simulating accumulated "sleep debt".

So yeah, I'm willing to say that pretty much all of this stemmed directly from fatigue. And I think the NSTB, by repeatedly referencing it in their report, are doing the same thing.

I'm not so sure I agree. There are other indicators that can define fatigue. A lously nights sleep, a long duty day--with low approaches, clashes with gate agents who push every time you come through the hub. Last day, last leg, --where is my car parked?

These are recognizable influences that directly affect your reponse, reaction time, and decison making ability. Personal experience---I will use "automation to it's fullest ability" on a leg where I'm "fatigued." I will brief the FO to "keep an eye on me, it's been a long day," or, "last low aprroach, let's not screw up."

Talking about it with your fellow flight deck crew-member is a huge error chain recognition technique when you're both bush-wacked from a long day/week/night. Crews fly tired all the time and they do a great job, because they recognize it and talk about it, especially before the approach.

This specific crew made fateful decisions prior to beginning the ILS 28 LOC UNSBL approach. They didn't brief the G/S out. They didn't talk about landing technique on a short contaminated runway--they didn't configure for a short contaminated runway landing. When the Captain elected to go-around, his FO, the PF, refused and continued the approach. Hello? Fatigue may have been a factor as the NTSB points out, but when the Captain says GO-AROUND, you don't continue. So what about command authority and mutual respect in that cockpit?

You see the result. Learn from their mistakes. Pray you can be smarter.

T8

P.S. Good post Rez

 

[CFI2766]

And the ATA wants the FAA to reduce rest requirements for regular line holders and eliminate rest requirements for reserves.

You have got to be kidding me. Source?

If this idea passes, that of reducing rest requirements, why not legalize sending a few bottles from the liquour kit up to the flight deck? LUNACY!

 

[CFI2766]

It certianly is a lack of judgement. In addition if a pilot flies for a carrier that can get away with intimidation, doesn't have a solid safety structure and ability to enforce "wrongful termination" and pilot pushing then pilots will fly fatigue. In the end its a choice and the responsibility we accept as PIC.





WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!


It's Monday morning pilotage exactly like this that makes it more difficult for other pilots to come to the conclusion that they are fatigued. Rez, you very much seem to be taking the stance that since it didn't turn out well, it is easily 51% or more the fault of the crewmembers. How many times on a daily basis does fatigue affect the safety of 121 air travel in the world that never gets recognized because it didn't result in an NTSB report?

Accepting the responsibility as PIC of a flight is one thing, but being placed in a no-win situation because of your schedule is another. I really don't know about this airline, but where I work, the PIC has to file a report if a go-around is made. Absolutetly nowhere in the FOM does it require a pilot to file a report if he/she feels that safety was compromised due to fatigue. To say that, effectively, you accept the possibilty of fatigue affecting your flight when the PIC signs the release is just plain wrong. Really now, what was this guy's choice: go and hopefully not make the evening news, or, definately sign up, by calling in fatigued, for a one-way, no expenses paid trip to his chief pilot's office?


Fatigue to me is the most serious issue to date facing the airline pilot profession. Sure, it'd be nice to make more money, but finding that youv'e widowed your wife and orphaned your kids because you were too tired to shoot the approach to the airport where your car is, (which you had to shoot to not jeopardize your job), well, you get my point...

 

[PCL_128]

You seem to want to put the cause of this event all on fatigue.

Yes, that's exactly what I want to do. Everything else is irrelevant after it's been determined that fatigue was a factor. Everything else stems from that.

Even if I were fatigued... I use GS out minima, land in the TDZE and use TR and brakes.

Honestly, I'm surprised to hear you say things like this. Stating how you would act when fatigued is a little bit ridiculous. People act out of character and irrationally when fatigued. They aren't themselves. For any of us to be pointing fingers at this crew is unprofessional in my opinion.

 

[TAWS]

You know .............. I don't often agree with Soverytired, but I have to say that he has hit the nail on the head with every post on this thread.

Rez - you should be ashamed of yourself!
There are extenuating circumstances here that may not have come fully to light in the report.

I know that this is my second carrier and I have been fatigued at both, on more than one occassion, but the funny thing is that I didn't realize it until after I did something stupid. Fatigue is a creeping affliction and I know from experience that you won't know you have it (unless you are drop dead tired), until you do something wrong.
I wish I always did the right thing and flew the plane perfectly like Rez.