Shuttle America / 2007 CLE over run

[rogerwilcoout]

Yeah, since the "adults" have done much, much better (How about United 173 or Eastern 401. Both from the "Good-Old Days." Both simple light problems).

At least there weren't any fatalities in this accident.

You mean kinda like whena crew departs the wrong runway and crashes?

 

[Caspian27]

You mean kinda like whena crew departs the wrong runway and crashes?

What exactly are you alluding to? The LEX Comair crash? I don't work for Comair, so I'm not exactly sure what you're aiming at here.

Regional aircraft have been involved in crashes too. My point was that ALL pilots, mainline & regional have been involved in needless accidents over the years. It has nothing to do with age or experience.

Additionally, your profile says you fly the E-170 so you're a REGIONAL pilot. I was just defending regional pilots against a baseless post.

(See the original post I quoted and maybe it will make sense.)

 

[Soverytired]

You seem to want to put the cause of this event all on fatigue.

Even if I were fatigued... I use GS out minima, land in the TDZE and use TR and brakes.

Would you? What if you were unknowingly hypoxic due to a carbon monoxide leak in the ducts? What if you had an bad reaction to a medication you'd taken during flight?

Can you say with medical certainty that your judgment wouldn't be impaired, and your performance decreased as long as you relied on past good habits and professionalism?

Fatigue is no different. At least according to everyone who's ever studied it. Pilot's who are great in the sim start to fall apart after 14 hours no matter how good they are. The same thing happens to pilots who fly under conditions simulating accumulated "sleep debt".

So yeah, I'm willing to say that pretty much all of this stemmed directly from fatigue. And I think the NSTB, by repeatedly referencing it in their report, are doing the same thing.

 

[skyaddict]

(NTSB) "A fatigue policy that allows flight crewmembers to
call in as fatigued without fear of reprisals would be
an effective method for countering fatigue during
flight operations."

This should absolutely, positively be the case. It is policy at my employer and, although unrealistic duty limits inferior to truckdrivers are still the achilles heel of air crew fatigue, a no-fault fatigue policy makes a world of difference because the schedulers ultimately are powerless if you need to pull that card. No carpet dance, no "but..." or "well you're going to have to talk to....".

Every regional airline memo on attendance policy should be made the laughing stock it deserves to be.

 

[regionaltard]

You seem to want to put the cause of this event all on fatigue.

Even if I were fatigued... I use GS out minima, land in the TDZE and use TR and brakes.

You seem to claiming that you, as the avatar of Trade Unionism and Pilot Professionalism, are immune to the effects of fatigue. I'm calling B.S. on that one.

Whether or not a more experienced, more disciplined, better-drilled crew would have achieved a different outcome is certainly open to debate; the NTSB did not give these guys a free pass. What's important is that they recognized the very real possibility that fatigue played a significant role in pushing a real-world crew to the tipping point beyond which they were unable to cope with the demands of the operation they were conducting.

 

[trainer8]

Would you? What if you were unknowingly hypoxic due to a carbon monoxide leak in the ducts? What if you had an bad reaction to a medication you'd taken during flight?

Can you say with medical certainty that your judgment wouldn't be impaired, and your performance decreased as long as you relied on past good habits and professionalism?

Fatigue is no different. At least according to everyone who's ever studied it. Pilot's who are great in the sim start to fall apart after 14 hours no matter how good they are. The same thing happens to pilots who fly under conditions simulating accumulated "sleep debt".

So yeah, I'm willing to say that pretty much all of this stemmed directly from fatigue. And I think the NSTB, by repeatedly referencing it in their report, are doing the same thing.

I'm not so sure I agree. There are other indicators that can define fatigue. A lously nights sleep, a long duty day--with low approaches, clashes with gate agents who push every time you come through the hub. Last day, last leg, --where is my car parked?

These are recognizable influences that directly affect your reponse, reaction time, and decison making ability. Personal experience---I will use "automation to it's fullest ability" on a leg where I'm "fatigued." I will brief the FO to "keep an eye on me, it's been a long day," or, "last low aprroach, let's not screw up."

Talking about it with your fellow flight deck crew-member is a huge error chain recognition technique when you're both bush-wacked from a long day/week/night. Crews fly tired all the time and they do a great job, because they recognize it and talk about it, especially before the approach.

This specific crew made fateful decisions prior to beginning the ILS 28 LOC UNSBL approach. They didn't brief the G/S out. They didn't talk about landing technique on a short contaminated runway--they didn't configure for a short contaminated runway landing. When the Captain elected to go-around, his FO, the PF, refused and continued the approach. Hello? Fatigue may have been a factor as the NTSB points out, but when the Captain says GO-AROUND, you don't continue. So what about command authority and mutual respect in that cockpit?

You see the result. Learn from their mistakes. Pray you can be smarter.

T8

P.S. Good post Rez

 

[CFI2766]

And the ATA wants the FAA to reduce rest requirements for regular line holders and eliminate rest requirements for reserves.

You have got to be kidding me. Source?

If this idea passes, that of reducing rest requirements, why not legalize sending a few bottles from the liquour kit up to the flight deck? LUNACY!

 

[CFI2766]

It certianly is a lack of judgement. In addition if a pilot flies for a carrier that can get away with intimidation, doesn't have a solid safety structure and ability to enforce "wrongful termination" and pilot pushing then pilots will fly fatigue. In the end its a choice and the responsibility we accept as PIC.





WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!


It's Monday morning pilotage exactly like this that makes it more difficult for other pilots to come to the conclusion that they are fatigued. Rez, you very much seem to be taking the stance that since it didn't turn out well, it is easily 51% or more the fault of the crewmembers. How many times on a daily basis does fatigue affect the safety of 121 air travel in the world that never gets recognized because it didn't result in an NTSB report?

Accepting the responsibility as PIC of a flight is one thing, but being placed in a no-win situation because of your schedule is another. I really don't know about this airline, but where I work, the PIC has to file a report if a go-around is made. Absolutetly nowhere in the FOM does it require a pilot to file a report if he/she feels that safety was compromised due to fatigue. To say that, effectively, you accept the possibilty of fatigue affecting your flight when the PIC signs the release is just plain wrong. Really now, what was this guy's choice: go and hopefully not make the evening news, or, definately sign up, by calling in fatigued, for a one-way, no expenses paid trip to his chief pilot's office?


Fatigue to me is the most serious issue to date facing the airline pilot profession. Sure, it'd be nice to make more money, but finding that youv'e widowed your wife and orphaned your kids because you were too tired to shoot the approach to the airport where your car is, (which you had to shoot to not jeopardize your job), well, you get my point...

 

[PCL_128]

You seem to want to put the cause of this event all on fatigue.

Yes, that's exactly what I want to do. Everything else is irrelevant after it's been determined that fatigue was a factor. Everything else stems from that.

Even if I were fatigued... I use GS out minima, land in the TDZE and use TR and brakes.

Honestly, I'm surprised to hear you say things like this. Stating how you would act when fatigued is a little bit ridiculous. People act out of character and irrationally when fatigued. They aren't themselves. For any of us to be pointing fingers at this crew is unprofessional in my opinion.

 

[TAWS]

You know .............. I don't often agree with Soverytired, but I have to say that he has hit the nail on the head with every post on this thread.

Rez - you should be ashamed of yourself!
There are extenuating circumstances here that may not have come fully to light in the report.

I know that this is my second carrier and I have been fatigued at both, on more than one occassion, but the funny thing is that I didn't realize it until after I did something stupid. Fatigue is a creeping affliction and I know from experience that you won't know you have it (unless you are drop dead tired), until you do something wrong.
I wish I always did the right thing and flew the plane perfectly like Rez.

 

[Soverytired]

Hah hah! You know, I just found myself thinking the same thing about me never agreeing with PCL-128 . . . but we see eye to eye on this one.

Frankly, once the NTSB report came out, I don't think the proximate cause of this accident is debatable. The only reason this thread even has any value it to try and teach some of the young turks that FATIGUE does not mean "Tired". It's a very real safety hazard, and current duty time / rest requirements do not treat it seriously.

Anyone who's done something stupid (ahem) while inadvertently flying fatigued will understand that fatigue really can sneak up on you and cause some unexpected and surprising errors that NEVER happen to a well rested, highly experienced and competent pilot.

Ignore it or marginalize it at your own peril . ..

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We see our fellow pilots fly with bad habits often. This accident didn't happen JUST because of fatigue. We all know that accidents are a result of a series of events that happen to line up on the day in question.

The fatigue issue can probably clear these pilots if it can be proven that the company had a pilot pushing problem.

However, flying fatigue will get you FAR 91.13 and violated!

This is the reason why you fly to a high standard everytime, so when you have a stacked deck against you, you slip from high standard and not from a meduim or low standard.

If you are the type of pilot that doesn't brief and fly GS out minima, does NOT aim for and land on the 1000 marker, doesn't use TR, doesn't go around when the call is made.... then you might not wreck a jet.... but throw in fatigue and that might cause an accident... as it did here....

These guys were unprofessionals and exceeded thier limitations.... There was nothing extra ordinary here... no windshear, no SE approach, no runway incursion, no medical emergency, no fire, no flight control problem..etc...

These guys made bad choices, which by the way ...professionalism is a choice....