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Shuttle America / 2007 CLE over run

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Far as I'm concerned, if fatigue was a factor (as it was ruled to be), ever other point is moot.

If the NTSB had ruled the pilots were intoxicated, everyone would immediately assume that all other errors comitted on this flight stemmed directly from their intoxicated state. THE SAME SHOULD BE ASSUMED FOR FATIGUE.

Nice to see the NTSB put in at least 5 points that either directly or indirectly addressed fatigue.

I have no doubt the NTSB desperately wants to change the duty time/rest rules, but lacks the authority to do so.
 
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My guess is they never intentionally said "you know what, we'll just go to ILS mins anyway"... that didn't happen.

What happened was they were too dang tired and screwed up. Simple as that.
Good post!

Far as I'm concerned, if fatigue was a factor (as it was ruled to be), ever other point is moot.

If the NTSB had ruled the pilots were intoxicated, everyone would immediately assume that all other errors comitted on this flight stemmed directly from their intoxicated state. THE SAME SHOULD BE ASSUMED FOR FATIGUE.

Nice to see the NTSB put in at least 5 points that either directly or indirectly addressed fatigue.

I have no doubt the NTSB desperately wants to change the duty time/rest rules, but lacks the authority to do so.
Also a good post.
 
3000ft down the runway! Plan to put on the 1000ft marker everytime. Guys going for greasers contributed to this event!

Also... inability to call fatigue... and the choice to not use GS out minima.


In other words... Unprofessional!!!
Did you consider the actions of their Chief Pilot before you typed that?
 
Stop letting children play in airline cockpits

Yeah, since the "adults" have done much, much better (How about United 173 or Eastern 401. Both from the "Good-Old Days." Both simple light problems).

At least there weren't any fatalities in this accident.
 
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Also... inability to call fatigue... and the choice to not use GS out minima.

In other words... Unprofessional!!!

The NSTB and NASA studies have conclusively proven that there are cases where pilots are fatigued and don't even know it.

Clearly, their "choice" to use GS out minima and poor crew coordination was heavily influenced by fatigue. Remember, some levels of fatigue are as bad or worse than being intoxicated.

I'm not picking a fight here. The fact is that failing to call "fatigue" is not necessarily a lack of character, guts or unprofessionalism.

There are valid reasons that the FAA has established bottle-to-throttle time rules and max blood alcohol limits. By following these rules, it's impossible for a pilot to arrive on the job intoxicated.

The comparable FAA duty time/rest requirement rules do NOT guarantee the lack of fatigue for pilots . . . far from it. NASA, the NTSB, ALPA, and most pilots know this, but the FAA fails to re-write rules that could virtually eliminate this elusive yet very real safety hazard.

=====================

If fatigued and you know it, certainly call in "fatigued." But what do you do when you've taken off "ok" but are "fatigued" en-route . . . due to your 8-hr reduced rest overnight the night before and are into your 5th leg of a 12 hour day?

Your stance seems to suggest you have never been in this situation. You are quite fortunate. Maybe you could cut a little slack to those who have, eh?
 
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The NSTB and NASA studies have conclusively proven that there are cases where pilots are fatigued and don't even know it.

And what is the FAA and NTSB doing about helping pilots recognize fatigue.

A cozy mx relationship with carrier?

Clearly, their "choice" to use GS out minima and poor crew coordination was heavily influenced by fatigue. Remember, some levels of fatigue are as bad or worse than being intoxicated.

I disagree. That was choice. If a pilot consistently operates the same way then when fatigue is a factor s/he will default to common past practice. Not flying below minimums

That is the arguement with aiming for the 1000ft marker everytime. If you make each landing conditional... for example.. "I got 10000ft of runway its sunny and dry...does it matter if I touchdown in the touchdown zone?"

Why make it hard on yourself ....when there is ice or low vis or both and you have to rethink your technique.

I'm not picking a fight here. The fact is that failing to call "fatigue" is not necessarily a lack of character, guts or unprofessionalism.

It certianly is a lack of judgement. In addition if a pilot flies for a carrier that can get away with intimidation, doesn't have a solid safety structure and ability to enforce "wrongful termination" and pilot pushing then pilots will fly fatigue. In the end its a choice and the responsibility we accept as PIC.

There are valid reasons that the FAA has established bottle-to-throttle time rules and max blood alcohol limits. By following these rules, it's impossible for a pilot to arrive on the job intoxicated.

Wrong. Say that to the NWA crew in 1990.

The comparable FAA duty time/rest requirement rules do NOT guarantee the lack of fatigue for pilots . . . far from it. NASA, the NTSB, ALPA, and most pilots know this, but the FAA fails to re-write rules that could virtually eliminate this elusive yet very real safety hazard.

Do you know why?

If fatigued and you know it, certainly call in "fatigued." But what do you do when you've taken off "ok" but are "fatigued" en-route due to your 8-hr reduced rest overnight the night before and are into your 5th leg of a 12 hour day?

Through professionalism, experience, judgement and a support system pilots don't.

Easier said than done.

That is similiar to saying...What if you fly into a dark cloud and realize your in a T-strom.
 
And the ATA wants the FAA to reduce rest requirements for regular line holders and eliminate rest requirements for reserves.
 
Do you know why?

Through professionalism, experience, judgment and a support system pilots don't.

Easier said than done.

Well, thanks for keeping it professional in your reply. Rather than go at it point by point (which would probably be "pointless"), we'll have to agree to disagree on most points.

With one exception. By your own admission (re: "experience"), the only way you'd ever realize that you pushed the limit too far and have put yourself in a "fatigued" flying condition is to have done it. You may learn from it, but for the duration of that flight you're screwed.

In actuality, you've probably already flown fatigued, muddled through and never even realized it. On a normal day with a good co-pilot, how would you even tell?

The NTSB has no regulatory authority or these changes would have been made a decade ago. The FAA, as you say, is throughly in bed with big business.

However, the "I can tell when I'm fatigued, 100% of the time, and I can overcome it by sheer force of will if I have to .. . plus I've done this a million times before" attitude of some pilots isn't helping them make changes any faster.
 
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Well, thanks for keeping it professional in your reply. Rather than go at it point by point (which would probably be "pointless"), we'll have to agree to disagree on most points.

With one exception. By your own admission (re: "experience"), the only way you'd ever realize that you pushed the limit too far and have put yourself in a "fatigued" flying condition is to have done it. You may learn from it, but for the duration of that flight you're screwed.

In actuality, you've probably already flown fatigued, muddled through and never even realized it. On a normal day with a good co-pilot, how would you even tell?

The NTSB has no regulatory authority or these changes would have been made a decade ago. The FAA, as you say, is throughly in bed with big business.

However, the "I can tell when I'm fatigued, 100% of the time, and I can overcome it by sheer force of will if I have to .. . plus I've done this a million times before" attitude of some pilots isn't helping them make changes any faster.

You seem to want to put the cause of this event all on fatigue.

Even if I were fatigued... I use GS out minima, land in the TDZE and use TR and brakes.
 

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