Shutting off the fuel in a Seneca I

[tathepilot]

Has anyone had an experience in a Seneca I where you shut off the fuel to an engine (prop still windmilling) and the engine didn't start back up when the fuel was turned back on?.

The reason I'm asking is because when I did my initial multi-engine my mei shut off the fuel as the localizer came alive, he than turned the fuel back on around 500 feet and than simulated zero thrust. That seems like the best way to go.

Currently I'm doing training for my mei and the instructor that I use shuts off the fuel as I'm entering the pattern and than he doesn't turn it back on until I'm rolling out. This doesn't seem like the safest way to go. It runs through my mind that 'what if I botch the landing and need to go around'? What if the engine doesn't start when the fuel is turned back on?

How does everyone else do single engine fuel cut-off's in a Seneca I

 

[Alchemy]

Shutting off the fuel in the traffic pattern is a little risky, IMO. Personally, I wouldn't do any engine shutdowns below 3500 agl. 3500 AGL is the minimum altitude for VMC demonstrations in the POH, so I figure it's a good minimum for engine shutdowns too. Below that I'd just pull one throttle to idle (to practice IAP's and Landings). I've got about 80 hours in the seneca I.

 

[labbats]

There's a lot of risk to multi engine training as it is, why create an engine out that low, when zero thrust works just fine?

I agree with Alchemy.

 

[tathepilot]

That's sound advice.
I'd especially like to hear from the people with lots of pa34 time.



thanks

 

[teach2fly]

GET ANOTHER INSTRUCTOR!

I suggest getting another instructor...your instructor is unsafe....why create a real emergency for yourself?...no fuel selector cutoff and mixture cutoffs below 3000 AGL...period!...remember... most of the safety considerations in the PTS (altitude suggestions) is written in blood...usually because of stupid tricks like you mentioned...your instructor is probably one of those that gives engine out when your speed is below vmc also....anyway, good luck with your training.

 

[Rick1128]

While there is NO requirement for an actual engine shutdown during multi-engine training, it is an excellent idea for the student to actually shutdown and restart an engine in flight. That being said, however, it is one of the dumbist ideas out there in the training enviroment to shut one down below 3000 feet. There are way too many things that can go wrong to play that game. Even at the professional level, that I am doing my instruction at.

 

[ProLine4]

Get a new MEI

You need to get a new MEI, or at least ask his/her boss for their input on what's going on during your flights. The Crapaca I flies like a dumpster single engine, and that's on a good day (low density altitude, lightly loaded, etc)...the last thing you want in any twin, let alone one that performs poorly single engine, is to turn a training scenario into a real emergency.

For what it's worth, basic rules that I was taught by Feds, other MEIs, and that I also teach:

1. Below 3000' AGL, any engine failures are with simulated with throttle only. Per the PTS, the MEI or examiner should then set or allow you to set zero thrust.
2. No Vmc demos or prolonged single-engine airwork (ie, full shutdown/feather/xfeed/restarts, drag demos) below 5000' AGL.
3. Any engine failures on takeoff are done with throttle only and prior to reaching 1/2 of Vmc.
4. No single-engine go-arounds below 500' AGL...
Disclaimer #1: Very few situations would warrant going around single-engine. If at all possible, land the aircraft.
Disclaimer #2: 500' AGL is the absolute minimum. Know your aircraft, and its single engine performance and limitations. If you are flying a loaded 421 single engine during the summer in PHX and #1 occurs, guess what, you'll need more than 500' to make it happen. In fact, that SE climb will probably not exist, because pitching for blue line can sometimes at best yield straight-and-level, or worse, a descent. You're now experiencing the true limits of Vyse and single engine ops.

Ask your instructor what you should if, while the fuel is shutoff with the selector and/or mixture, you need to go around and you're at traffic pattern altitude or lower. If you've ever been shown or have tried a single-engine go-around aloft, its an eye-opener. I always show this to students to demonstrate exactly why you are committed to land, regardless of what happens, when you descend below 500' AGL.

Good luck with the MEI!

 

[Alchemy]

Agreed, there's no reason to tempt fate in the "crapaca I". It's been a while since I did engine shutdowns in it, but we were doing well to maintain 4000 MSL on one engine during the summer. 200 horspepower doesn't go too far with an airplane of that size. If for some reason the engine would not restart you would be screwed if you had to go missed.

 

[tathepilot]

Thanks for all the input. I just got back from a training flight. I expressed my concern with the practice that he uses. (Fuel shutoff until rollout). He basically said that when you turn the fuel back on the engine will start back up. Again I said "what happens if I botch the approach and you need to go around ?". He said in real life with an engine out you are comitted to land. I guess he thinks that it is ok with what he does.
The next time we fly I will insist that he simulate zero thrust.

 

[Timebuilder]

The PA 34-200 was my first twin. I instructed in it.

There is only one training scenario where you turn off the fuel for an engine shutdown procedure. At a minimum of 3,000 AGL, and near a field where a forced landing is not a problem.

Not a corn field, a real landing field.

A word about fuel valves.

You should always test those fuel valves on the taxi. After starting, go to cross feed for the taxi. At least a minute before you reach the runup area, go back to the normal fuel position, which is "on" for takeoff and landing. If you have no trouble during the runup with fuel flow, you have good evidence that you have successfully reestablished normal same-side fuel flow. Don't wait until the last minute to go from crossfeed to "on." You can't trust the valves, even these mechanical valves, to restore flow when returned to the "on" position.

Below 3,000 AGL, such as on an ILS intercept for single engine approach training, use ONLY the throttle reduction and the zero thrust setting. The only landing you should be making with a feathered or shutdown engine is an emergency landing.

As someone pointed out above, multi training is dangerous enough without making it more so.

One other thing. I don't want to embarass a former colleague, but this is a good example of how an assumption in this airpplane can bite you on the keister. When you operate the gen switches to look at the outputs during the runup, make sure they end up in the "on" poistion, too. My friend left them "off" by mistake, after happily moving them back and forth several times, and took off for some night flying. He was good for a while, but an instrument check during the cruise checks would have found the problem. He had an interesting time of it, and made it back safely, a little wiser.

And a little embarassed.