Short Field Performance - Best Swept-Wing Corp. Jet?

[xrated]

No auto pressurization? When did this happen? You must be thinking of an EMB-120.

So, you're telling me that the extra $1,200/hour multiplied by five is worth it to save 45 minutes? NO EXECUTIVE is worth that!

I have never seen a structural failure in an EMB and I have been DH in the back with some pretty awful landings.

Why the hell do I want to lug around four hydraulic systems???????? I don't need that weight. I have two with mechanical reversion. I'll take the latter over the former.

Flutter? Mach effects? WTH do I care about that for? There is a thing called VMO/MMO. Stay at or near that number and it isn't an issue any way, and we all know this airplane will go well faster than 0.80 Mach safely.

Again, what is so great about 7000 NM range? NOBODY does that any way.

All the other stuff is simple to fix. VNAV, FMS, etc. requires a simple software change. FLIR and HUD can be added, but again, they are just nice toys and not really NECESSARY to perform the job.

No wonder your airplane weighs so much and burns so much gas. You have all these nifty toys to lug around and rarely, if ever, use...

Like the man said, all airplanes are compromises of one sort or another. I think the Legacy is a great airplane.

Hey LegacyDriver,

With that attitude, why wouldn't you just go with a used Cessna 340. Seems to me with the price of a Legacy, you could by every C-340 on the market. Who needs jets, apu, lavs, blah blah blah!

 

[bigD]

Hey LegacyDriver,

With that attitude, why wouldn't you just go with a used Cessna 340. Seems to me with the price of a Legacy, you could by every C-340 on the market. Who needs jets, apu, lavs, blah blah blah!

Careful now - don't be dissing my 340! 195 knots baby! What can I say, I travel in style, and with none of that "glass" crap you fellas have to deal with (although I do have a 530, which is nice).

 

[xrated]

I wasn't dissing the 340 at all.....I agree, its a sweet ride.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Hey LegacyDriver,

With that attitude, why wouldn't you just go with a used Cessna 340. Seems to me with the price of a Legacy, you could by every C-340 on the market. Who needs jets, apu, lavs, blah blah blah!

That is such a ridiculous comeback that I shall simply ignore it.

 

[GVFlyer]

Hey LegacyDriver,

With that attitude, why wouldn't you just go with a used Cessna 340. Seems to me with the price of a Legacy, you could by every C-340 on the market. Who needs jets, apu, lavs, blah blah blah!

Funny....very funny!

GV

 

[GVFlyer]

Cessna - Ferguson

Careful now - don't be dissing my 340! 195 knots baby! What can I say, I travel in style, and with none of that "glass" crap you fellas have to deal with (although I do have a 530, which is nice).

Come-on D, you know that thing sounds like a tractor and besides, if it has props it belongs in the water!

GV








.

 

[GVFlyer]

F - What about "F"???? I feel soooo left out!

"F" hasn't been trashing me lately and besides we're both members of the Tin Hat Brotherhood. Thanks to the wonders of Reynolds Wrap ain't no above the Legacy service ceiling, eye-ball frying, cosmic radiation going to cook our brains! Noooo, Sir!


Zoltan ..er ah, GV

 

[banned username 2]

"F" hasn't been trashing me lately

But it is always in good fun! These guys are trying to do a number on your here, kinda fun to sit back and watch, obviously they haven't frequented the Corporate board much! I think you should hit them with a couple drag polars and put them out of our misery!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Not trying to do a number. Trying to inject some sanity into this debate.

Why use a nuke when a Snakeye will do the job for much less?

The Legacy is a highly viable alternative. Just as the big gas guzzling bizjets went out of favor in the 70s for fan-powered alternatives...cost is important today. The Legacy is an extremely competitive and attractive option for anyone serious about protecting the bottom line.

 

[bigD]

Come-on D, you know that thing sounds like a tractor and besides, if it has props it belongs in the water!

LOL...well it *does* kinda sound like a tractor, and it's got a lot of other little things it does that's kinda funny, like give me a nice healthy roll to the left whenever I indicate more than 175 knots (in a descent of course!).

And I actually have to *fly* this thing (the autopilot sucks enough that I essentially consider it INOP). Not that "okay V1, rotate, gear up, autopilot on, where's my coffee and newspaper?" stuff you do in the GV!

 

[CatYaaak]

No wonder your airplane weighs so much and burns so much gas. You have all these nifty toys to lug around and rarely, if ever, use...
QUOTE]

Your operational experience outside the States is obviously very limited, or nonexistent. Gulfstreams are designed and equipped to do that routinely..that's their mission flexibility-through-performance....and do it to the highest level of safety possible. That "highest level of safety" is what the company wants, thinks necessary, and is willing to pay for. The only person who thinks PFM boxes are about ego (assigned by you to others of course!) or is never used, is you.

Regarding your other points from this and other posts:

If you knew or had a say in what the people in back were worth to the company, you'd be sitting on the Board and be one of those people in back. You're a driver though, and those questions are way above your pay grade.

Flight departments never directly generate revenue, they always represent an expense. This isn't an airline. The primary reasons for a company to buy an airplane is to further company strategic goals, and provide transport to the highest level of safety, flexibility, and security, exceeding other forms of travel including the airlines. It's not about "cost", it's about doing the mission, and given the criteria above, meeting those goals as efficiently as possible. There is a difference.

Others and myself have addressed the cost, comfort, routing, and fuel specific advantages of the ability to go high due to better performance. You don't seem to care, or care to find out. But your other comment about dismissing tech stops as no big issue tells me you don't fly much out in the world (like people flying Gulfstreams can and do) and that you're imagining Point A and B as always being places like Boise and Peoria, instead of, say, Cairo to Joburg. Your refusal to consider the inherent risks and expenses in terms of arrangements and outright dollars of tech stops in not-First-world places (where you will making them in your Legacy) fails you on the issues of safety, security, and comfort to the highest level. A blown tire in the wrong place can mean days of delay in a place you don't want to be. Your pax certainly wont. Teen-soldiers carrying AKs milling about the plane and paying for fuel in large wads of cash as the locals look on doesn't exactly mean warm fuzzy moments for the pax during your little Legacy Tech Stop either. Most don't talk about it, but large companies do often buy kidnap insurance on traveling execs for reasons that should be obvious. Tech stops increase risks. Night tech stops in unfamiliar airports increase them more..significantly more in those kind of places.

Don't forget that the Gulfstream that didn't need your tech stop knew he was getting uncontaminated fuel too....who knows what you're getting in a place like Mopti. He had a choice, you didnt. No way do the execs, or the people who pay their salaries want them to be sitting around wasting time in places like that. The Gulfstream also has more flexibility when it comes to tankering fuel, and thus more choices and bargaining power for better prices. That saves you some of those "costs" you were worried about, because your $300 per hour savings can be used up in one or two pops when they have you over the barrel.

And the PFM boxes you think are ego-driven. If and when you finally do start flying outside the womb, you'll change your opinion about them, especially if you actually live up to your company's insistence on the highest level of safety that they'll pay for. Triple IRSs, dual FMSs, dual HFs, Satcom, Egws, maybe EVS, Vnav, life rafts and spare life rafts, lugging jungle/water/polar survival kits etc etc. are indeed routinely used or standing by to enhance the level of safety you are expected to provide. Are you sure the VOR at Khartoum was been calibrated lately?....teh airport surveyed?....I'm not, even though Im told they are...but on a dark night it sure is nice to be able to build a vnav FMS-based approach on that same non-precision one just to be sure, or any place you've never been. That happens a lot in the corporate Gulfstream world...and it certainly is possible at anytime if you have an airplane that will roam the globe.

That's what Gulfstreams are designed to do, and why they are equipped the way they are..a Legacy is not. It's silly to compare them unless we are talking about a specific company that knows its only going from Boise to Preoria, and always will. Then maybe a Legacy would do fine, but even then it would still be better to circumnavigate the tops of those Midwest cold front CBs in the clear and smooth air chest-high in the mid-40s, than buck and jink around them in the soup waist-high down in airliner levels. Unlike the airlines, if you're going to fly corporate, you need to start caring whether your passengers puke or not. You WILL see them again on another flight.

Given the scope of it's mission and the flexiblity it offers, comparing the Legacy to the Gulfstream (or Global, Falcon 900) is ludicrous.

 

[banned username 2]

Well THAT pretty much sums it up!

CatYaaak, thanks for typing what I was too lazy to type!

 

[LegacyDriver]

My operational experience is admittedly limited to the USA, Canada, Central America and South America mostly in Citations (and the things we did with those...I would have murdered to have just half the stuff this Legacy has). I have yet to see anything a Legacy wouldn't do and do well. I'm more worried about what I have seen in Central America than anything I can imagine in Europe short of terrorist cattleheaders, but I digress.

Consdering how rarely the Gulfstream actually uses its maximum capability I say it is perfectly reasonable to compare the two. Over 99% of what G-Strings normally and routinely do can be done by a Legacy for less.

The data is out there if you don't believe it.

For example, a B-52 can fly twice around the world non-stop (with tanker support) but how often does it actually do that? Flying only halfway around the world can get you anywhere you need to go so why double it other than to break a record? Nice capability, but is it really necessary?

I have never disputed that Gulfstreams are great airplanes. But again, all the gee-whiz, eye-watering, look-at-me-I'm-a-Gulfstream-pilot-with-a-big-wristwatch stuff is not used for the OVERWHELMING majority of Gulfstream missions. And if I am in need of a Gulfstream once every 100 flights I'll charter one! In the meantime, my Legacy is making my company feel a far lesser *COST* burden.

Of course Corporate Flight Departments are an expense. That's why they're the first to get axed when the economy takes a negative turn. The key is to minimize the expense while completing the mission effectively. The Legacy will do that.

You make it sound like the Legacy is made of tissue paper. It's not! It's tough and does the job very well. The thing just doesn't break. When something screws up it's usually a "Control Alt Delete" reset and off you go. Come down off your "FL950 High Horse".

 

[LegacyDriver]

And the PFM boxes you think are ego-driven. If and when you finally do start flying outside the womb, you'll change your opinion about them, especially if you actually live up to your company's insistence on the highest level of safety that they'll pay for. Triple IRSs, dual FMSs, dual HFs, Satcom, Egws, maybe EVS, Vnav, life rafts and spare life rafts, lugging jungle/water/polar survival kits etc etc. are indeed routinely used or standing by to enhance the level of safety you are expected to provide. Are you sure the VOR at Khartoum was been calibrated lately?....teh airport surveyed?....I'm not, even though Im told they are...but on a dark night it sure is nice to be able to build a vnav FMS-based approach on that same non-precision one just to be sure, or any place you've never been. That happens a lot in the corporate Gulfstream world...and it certainly is possible at anytime if you have an airplane that will roam the globe.

Speaking of which, about the only thing in here that we don't have on a Legacy is the EVS, and I am quite certain that any operator willing to spend a little money can get it. I'll defer to the experts on what is standard equipment and what is an option on the EMB--the point being, if someone wants the gizmo it can be had. A C-130 can do a Self-Contained Approach invented on the fly to any square foot of dirt in the world. Nice thing to have for the special ops missions they do but does that mean a Legacy or a G-V needs it just because it is a really cool toy?

 

[CatYaaak]

My operational experience is admittedly limited to the USA, Canada, Central America and South America mostly in Citations (and the things we did with those...I would have murdered to have just half the stuff this Legacy has). I have yet to see anything a Legacy wouldn't do and do well. I'm more worried about what I have seen in Central America than anything I can imagine in Europe short of terrorist cattleheaders, but I digress.

Consdering how rarely the Gulfstream actually uses its maximum capability I say it is perfectly reasonable to compare the two. Over 99% of what G-Strings normally and routinely do can be done by a Legacy for less.

The data is out there if you don't believe it.

For example, a B-52 can fly twice around the world non-stop (with tanker support) but how often does it actually do that? Flying only halfway around the world can get you anywhere you need to go so why double it other than to break a record? Nice capability, but is it really necessary?

I have never disputed that Gulfstreams are great airplanes. But again, all the gee-whiz, eye-watering, look-at-me-I'm-a-Gulfstream-pilot-with-a-big-wristwatch stuff is not used for the OVERWHELMING majority of Gulfstream missions. And if I am in need of a Gulfstream once every 100 flights I'll charter one! In the meantime, my Legacy is making my company feel a far lesser *COST* burden.

Of course Corporate Flight Departments are an expense. That's why they're the first to get axed when the economy takes a negative turn. The key is to minimize the expense while completing the mission effectively. The Legacy will do that.

You make it sound like the Legacy is made of tissue paper. It's not! It's tough and does the job very well. The thing just doesn't break. When something screws up it's usually a "Control Alt Delete" reset and off you go. Come down off your "FL950 High Horse".

Well, I noticed you failed once again to adress the specific issues regarding the advantages of higher flight levels (including flights taking 2 hours or less) as it relates to comfort and cost, tech stops as it relates to cost and risk, and tankering.

And even you must understand that when flying domestically or short hops (which seems to be your big point) the ability to tanker bulk-rate fuel out of your home base in a G-V and hop around the country on umpteen 2-hour stage lengths using the same tank of gas saves money when compared to having to tank up while on the road. So at some point, while the Gulfstream is still burning $1.40/gal fuel from the farm back home, you're burning $4.00/gal fuel in your Legacy. Hm, I wonder how that affects the big $300 per hour DOH difference you think means so much? Once again having flexibility due to superior performance is more efficient and saves hassles.

Actually, the vast majority of flight departments who operate Gulfstreams dont just "axe" the operation as soon as the economy turns sour. There have been a few examples, but at that level most large departments long ago realized the benefit of having one in good times or bad. You're just repeating a handy myth.

The Ego Issue. Once again you arbitrarily assign this to others (Gstream pilots) in a manner similar to how self-proclaimed "progressives" assign "ignorance" to anyone not seeing it their own way no matter what the facts are since they fancy themselves to be uniquely "enlightened". You need to get over this tendency, and address the issues instead, because it seems like the only ego around here is yours...and it seems bruised or something.

When you say the Legacy is "tough" and "just doesn't break", I take it you went to the same shcool of thought as the pilots who broke one's fuselage in half on landing, and still tried to taxi it in to the ramp with it's tail dragging?

If you are indeed an ex-AF turned Embraer demo-pilot like I have you figured for (and I'm sorry, but I see a poorly-hidden lack of understanding of corporate ops and company concerns in your posts, and doubt you've ever worked in a corporate flight department let alone been in a position to advise a Board or write the checks) you'd do better to learn more about the segment of aviation and the aircraft in it.

By the way, since you've avoided the subject of your own experience, why should anyone pay attention to you except as a time-killing exercise in debate? You certainly can't believe that anyone would change an opinion on how to spend 10s of millions of dollars on what you've offered here....do you?

 

[CatYaaak]

Speaking of which, about the only thing in here that we don't have on a Legacy is the EVS, and I am quite certain that any operator willing to spend a little money can get it. I'll defer to the experts on what is standard equipment and what is an option on the EMB--the point being, if someone wants the gizmo it can be had. A C-130 can do a Self-Contained Approach invented on the fly to any square foot of dirt in the world. Nice thing to have for the special ops missions they do but does that mean a Legacy or a G-V needs it just because it is a really cool toy?

Dude, you've been ranting and raving about how (in your opinion) stupid it is a Gulfstream has all that "expensive" equipment because you think it causes it to burn more gas and serves no purpose other than to boost a pilot's ego. Now here, not only do you say a Legacy has all those things!....but "hey anyone can buy it" too!

Make up your mind. Or is the problem you don't even know what a Gulfstream has in the first place? How can you know what it has when you admit you don't even know what standard equipment is on your own?

(now I'm sure....either a demo pilot at his first civi job, or an ex-regional guy at his first corp job... or a kid with a flight sim.).

 

[LegacyDriver]

Dude, you've been ranting and raving about how (in your opinion) stupid it is a Gulfstream has all that "expensive" equipment because you think it causes it to burn more gas and serves no purpose other than to boost a pilot's ego. Now here, not only do you say a Legacy has all those things!....but "hey anyone can buy it" too!

Make up your mind. Or is the problem you don't even know what a Gulfstream has in the first place? How can you know what it has when you admit you don't even know what standard equipment is on your own?

(now I'm sure....either a demo pilot at his first civi job, or an ex-regional guy at his first corp job... or a kid with a flight sim.).

You are clearly not very skilled at discussions of substance because you haven't been able to follow the course of this one too well.

For one thing, it is not my job to know what is standard equipment on the Legacy. I know what is on the airplane when I fly it and how it works. Knowing how it came to be there or what costs extra is the job for the dealer and the buyer, not the pilot.

You guys claim that the Gulfstream has four million pieces of equipment the EMB doesn't have. The reality is, the EMB has most of it and the things it lacks are not that important--they can be had if one wants with the exception of EVS (another gee whiz gadget that is only going to be used in the rarest of circumstances and probably isn't worth the expense)--for the bulk of the missions both airplanes fly.

Yeah, your airplane has fifteen redundant systems and can land on the deck of a carrier. Woopie. All that does is burn gas.

All airplanes are compromises. The EMB is a compromise in some areas, the Gulfstream is a compromise in others. No single airplane can do it all, and no airplane can do exactly what another can do. But the envelope overlaps enough for the overwhelming majority of cases to make the EMB a competitor to the Gulfstream. Call it what you want. You give the impression that G-String drivers are pious because yours is bigger, or a little faster, or can go a little farther. Immature if you ask me...

As I said, all airplanes are a compromise. Would an F-16 be the performer it is if it were fitted for carrier ops? Of course not! Would it be stronger? Sure. Over-engineering only goes so far however, and it does so at a price. Would the F/A-18 have better performance if built to USAF specs instead of USN requirements? You bet. But both are effective in similar roles. Each has its advantages and disadvantages, but both can do the job very well.

As for all this talk about the EMB being slow... If 0.90 Mach cruise speeds were the most efficient way to fly you can bet everyone would be doing it. But it isn't, and we don't. And anyone who has flown an EMB knows it will run right through the redline in cruise without a problem. That limitation is largely artificial.

The EMB is a good piece of equipment, with safety, comfort, redundancy, and efficiency all rolled into one package. And it is AFFORDABLE! I'm not so sure the terms efficient or affordable work in describing the Gulfstream.

(I love how people hurl insults when they start losing an argument.)

 

[LegacyDriver]

By the way, since you've avoided the subject of your own experience, why should anyone pay attention to you except as a time-killing exercise in debate? You certainly can't believe that anyone would change an opinion on how to spend 10s of millions of dollars on what you've offered here....do you?

I have given enough hints about my background. I need not say more. I do have an extensive background flying Corporate Jets. As I have said before, Citations mostly... Also, I will repeat again, I have no beef with the Gulfstream. It is a fantastic airplane. However, the Legacy is also a wonderful airplane and people will make the judgment for themselves which one better fullfils their mission requirements.

Some families like ONE SUV, others like TWO four-door sedans. You do what is best for your mission requirements. The EMB is clearly a viable alternative.

 

[TundraT]

The reality is, the EMB has most of it and the things it lacks are not that important--they can be had if one wants with the exception of EVS (another gee whiz gadget that is only going to be used in the rarest of circumstances and probably isn't worth the expense)

With the capablility of flying a 15 hour leg in the GV/G550 and weather at your destination changing for the worst, even with the best forecast. I'm more than happy to put the HUD down and EVS on, plant it on the TDZ, taxi in and be putting a few down at the bar while everyone else is making missed approaches or filing for their alternate. Rare, maybe, but when you need it why be wishing you spent the money.

 

[LegacyDriver]

With the capablility of flying a 15 hour leg in the GV/G550 and weather at your destination changing for the worst, even with the best forecast. I'm more than happy to put the HUD down and EVS on, plant it on the TDZ, taxi in and be putting a few down at the bar while everyone else is making missed approaches or filing for their alternate. Rare, maybe, but when you need it why be wishing you spent the money.

It is nice to have that capability, but again, that's why we *have* alternates and such--for those rare instances when we can't get in. Does the one time you use the EVS justify it's cost? That's up to the buyer to decide, not me.

Believe me, when I saw the EVS the first time I sounded like Will Smith in INDEPENDENCE DAY, "I gotta' get me one a'these!!" But in the last seven years I can only think of two instances when I would have used it (I went to my alternate instead), so for me it seems to be more money than it is worth.

Again, I'm not saying that the Legacy can do *everything* the G-String can do. Obviously it can't. But it does enough to make it an option and it's a heck of a lot cheaper to buy and fly. That's the point of all this. (I think I managed to hijack my own thread from Short Field performance to G-String vs. Embryo.)

*sheepish grin*