Senority issues ATA/AWA/AirTran

[freightdogfred]

Not stupid at all. Actually, ATA pilots have a frag clause which is supposed to protect our pilots in the event of transfer of aircraft OR routes. And seeing how AAI is purchasing our MDW hub and routes (read: gate leases and other slots) the clause SHOULD kick in. As written we would come over with seniority as determined in the Allegheny LLP's. Then there's the Mayor Daley thing about protecting employees. I won't try to predict how this will shake out but I suspect all this is negotiable - much like the rest of ATA's bankruptcy.

Never say never Ty.

Well I don't mean to piss in your wheaties, but your ALPA negoitiated frag clause prob ain't worth the paper is printed on.... Don't get me wrong- I wish the best for all ATA pilots and hope an agreement comes to pass for them. Just don't peg your hopes on Duane Woerth(less) and his band of merry men.

Course, what you and I think is pointless-It's what the judge thinks that counts.

Best of luck.

 

[Daddy]

Is AirTran even represented by ALPA? Aren't they their own in-house union?

 

[reepicheep]

I don't believe scope or frag. clauses or Allegheny/Mohawk is going to help. Unfortunately, you're in CH. 11, the courts & judge are now in control. If someone makes an offer for assets but they don't want to take pilots and the courts feel it's in the best interests of the shareholders, it's going down that way. Employees are way down the list of priorities. The same scenario will probably happen soon here at US Airways.

 

[Jetjockey]

I generally agree with reepicheep. The judge is now in the driver's seat. Can you imagine the courtroom with 30 lawyers fighting for thier clients best interests? We think this board is a snake pit?

I do believe it's like a football game. The employees are the underdogs, and managment is favored by 8 1/2 points. However with that being said, they have to play the game. I'm not expecting a major upset for the underdogs, but don't count them out of the game just yet.

Boston did win the world series this year, anything is possible.

 

[ultrarunner]

If I were at a failing airline and another came in and bought us out, I'd be embarrassed to be anything but stapled to the existing list. Anything but stapled is not right, and goes against everthing that seniority stands for. It's as simple as that.

You pay your money, place your bets. If it doesn't work out, you move on and start over.

 

[CaptSeth]

I believe that the current climate is such that the creditors interests and that of the employees are not entirely incompatible.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty was obviously born without the empathy gene.

Re-read the posts I have made on this subject, Champ. I have plenty of empathy for the ATA guys. I had an ATA app mostly filled out when I got hired by AirTran. I have been on both ends of the aviation cycle. That doesn't change the facts- and what I was simply stating is that this is not a merger. It is not a buyout. There are no airplanes involved. It is a sale of some gate leases, and some slots at LGA.

My other comment was factual in nature, too. If I had a choice between a furlough, or to continue flying, but on a ACMI basis, well, duh, I would take the latter. Sorry if my observation was a little to ascerbic for you.

 

[freightdogfred]

Is AirTran even represented by ALPA? Aren't they their own in-house union?

Yep, Airtran is in house......The mighty NPA is their union.

 

[atafan]

I've been through all this before and people never change.

I voted to allow our FEs the opportunity to transfer to the right seat and keep their seniority. I lost a lot of pilot seniority, why you ask. I decided after I got a good deal once and shafted twice I would always treat others the way I wanted to be treated, fairly.

I don't expect others to do the same, I don't believe in the Easter Bunny ...anymore

At least be honest with yourself. If Ty can sleep at night knowing that if AirTran does buy all of the assets they say they will at least 4-500 pilots will hit the bricks, of course only after we fly the routes until you can hire enough and upgrade enough to take these flying positions. All this going on without even a consideration of adding ATA pilots to the bottom of your current list. I'm not even beating the ALPA Frag clause drum, you don't even entertain the simplest token of humanity.

Night, night - pleasant dreams.
Pilots continue to eat each other, we will never move forward.

 

[TWA Dude]

If I were at a failing airline and another came in and bought us out, I'd be embarrassed to be anything but stapled to the existing list.

The trick is in the way of thinking. When another airline buys all or some of another is it for magnanimous reasons? No, it's business. It's not a matter of rewards or punishment. To the victor should go the spoils? NO! The pilots have nothing to do with the business decisions of their employer so why should they benefit by stapling?

Anything but stapled is not right, and goes against everthing that seniority stands for. It's as simple as that.

Where did you get the idea that seniority stands for that? You presume that a buyout negates seniority at the losing carrier. It shouldn't. An acquired carrier's pilots are not new hires and don't deserve to be treated as such. I choose not to advance my career on the backs of my collegues. Why do so few of us respect our peers?

 

[atafan]

TWA Dude,

You hit the nail on the head. It's all about respect.

You can only respect others after you respect yourself.

 

[flyndesk]

Didn't AirTran just defer their next 5 B-737's because they took a loss for the 3rd Quarter (fuel, hurricanes) and couldn't take the planes now? If AirTran doesn't take some of the ATA planes, are they just waiting until next year when they resume delivery of the ones ordered from Boeing? How many do they need to take on the MDW hub and all the LGA and DCA slots?

 

[atafan]

I believe that AirTran is projecting about 25 aircraft to service the hub, initially. AirTran may also get LGA and DCA slots, this would of course be additional frames required. IMHO

 

[ultrarunner]

The trick is in the way of thinking. When another airline buys all or some of another is it for magnanimous reasons? No, it's business. It's not a matter of rewards or punishment. To the victor should go the spoils? NO! The pilots have nothing to do with the business decisions of their employer so why should they benefit by stapling?Where did you get the idea that seniority stands for that? You presume that a buyout negates seniority at the losing carrier. It shouldn't. An acquired carrier's pilots are not new hires and don't deserve to be treated as such. I choose not to advance my career on the backs of my collegues. Why do so few of us respect our peers?

I disagee...employees coming on board because of a buyout should be at the will of the company.

Why should I assume that I can be integrated into an existing list. I'd feel luck to be at the bottom, and have a job.

We just differ in our opinion. I would not feel right about leapfrogging folks on an existing senioryity list. Those folks lucked out at being at the stronger carrier, and should not be expected to loose seniority to a person who is on the verge of loosing a job.

 

[atldc9]

AirTran is supposed to be wet leasing 15-18 aircraft from ATA for MDW. Roughly 150 -180 pilots would be involved depending on staffing levels. The other 10 airplanes that are initially going to be sent to MDW will come off of other AirTran routes, flown by Airtran pilots already trained and on the seniority list. This would allow the MDW operation to be about 25-28 airplanes initially. Airtran is scheduled to recieve 22 airplanes in 2005. Those airplanes will require pilots to be hired, again depending on staffing, probably around 220 pilots.

The question is what happens to the ATA 737's. The L10's and 757's are probably going to stay with the Indy operation and charter. Some of the 75's might even go to AWA or Continental, according to rumors. But there hasn't been much mention of the 737's. Airtran says they don't want them, but I wouldn't rule it out. You just never know.

If AirTran doesn't take any airplanes, I can't see any kind of seniority issue. For me, it is no planes-no merger-no seniority problems. The ATA 737's wil go somewhere, whether to Indy or the desert.

If the deal changes, and AirTran decides to take planes, then we should take the crews too. Using a ratio method would be the most fair method of integrating the 2 lists. I don't think anyone will really have any insight until the court has its say on the whole deal.

 

[CaptSeth]

on the verge of loosing a job.

Subject to interperetation. Sounds like the APA bogus BS about "career expectations." There is more than one bidder for these assets, and reorganization is also likely. This carrier is not dead, hence, it is an asset that is being bidded on - and bidded up. If AAI is FORTUNATE ENOUGH to get this asset, they should be FORTUNATE ENOUGH to get the employees to go with it, that made it a great (look at the DOT stats) carrier.

I do not believe that employees should be made to sacrifice their careers over usurious interest rates and oil industry price gouging.

Whatever. Doesn't affect me that much if AAI gets MDW, I'm on the 757, I'll be flying all night to someplace you've never even heard of, having a great time, enjoying being with old friends, and experiencing a truly challenging assignment.

 

[StaySeated]

Enlish asked what the allegheny mohawk provisions were for seniority..

In a nutshell, basically nothing. The alleheny mohawk provision is 30+ years old and mostly dealt with dismissal or loss of employment as the result of a merger. When it comes to seniority the same terms that can be found in the "Association Merger Policy" stand out, "fair and equitable" negotiations followed by "arbitration".

As others mentioned, the ata situation will not end up being a merger so niether provision will apply. Even if they did apply, lawyers have figured out that both policies are basically useless and one side will end up getting totally hosed. For my friends at ata, I hope the sell off is limited to gates and slots and you guys prevail out of indy. Good luck.

 

[Ty Webb]

I've been through all this before and people never change.
If Ty can sleep at night knowing that if AirTran does buy all of the assets they say they will at least 4-500 pilots will hit the bricks,.

Ok, first of all, there is nothing saying that ATA has to park those airplanes. If they want to start flying them on other routes, between other city pairs; you'll have $96 million dollars to use that you don't have right now.

And for whatever it is worth, if ATA decides to park those airplanes (again, not AirTran's decision) then the number of affected pilots will be much close to 250 than the numbers you came up with.

14 gates = about 100-112 flights per day, plus the 24 other flights at DCA and LGA, I come up with about 130 flights a day. 130 flights = about 20 planes, or 220-240 crew.

And we did not defer delivery of 737 aircraft, per se. We are still getting 8 by the end of 2004, just two airframes delivered in Dec that were going to come in Nov and Oct.

 

[mad691]

I can guarantee to you if Airtran gets what they want most of the people at ATA will get jobs. If Airtran is planning to take over the whole MDW operation they really don't have much of a choice. Their experienced, they know the operation, why woudn't you? Its not like a lot of people are going to be flocking to MDW as a domicle or be transfered. In the end most of the people on the ground will be taken and a lot of the pilots will be taken. A lot of the Midway pilots(second version)were hired by Airtran and so were a lot of National and Vanguard guys. As a matter of fact if you look at the classes that have gone through the last 6 months almost every class has had a couple of ATA guys. In the next 3 years most of the Airtran growth is going to be 737's anyway. We just hired a checkairman from ATA on 737 to go in the training department. Believe me they will be hiring a lot of ATA guys.

 

[TWA Dude]

Those folks lucked out at being at the stronger carrier, and should not be expected to lose seniority to a person who is on the verge of losing a job.

You're right; we'll just have to disagree. I prefer to look at the pilots and not their employers.