Seniority dispute ends at US Airways

[TWA Dude]

So, Mr. Turtle, each MEC spent millions of dollars and months of effort just to get a "proposal". Gee, I wonder why a federal jury didn't believe you.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Of course, doesn't the company pay hundreds of thousands for the union to come up with it's crew meal or hostage and internment or vacation proposals?

Do you think that USAPA will have to assess the pilots to give the money back?

 

[Cowboy75]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKib-3eGmCE&feature=related

Which was a better plan? Escape binding arbitration through ALPA or USAPA? Interesting look back.

No matter what vehicle you use, there will be no escaping the Nic decision.

 

[C Festerpuss]

I got’s me this hear Micosoft Winders -Bubba version… It’s great.

http://swellguy.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d1ea853ef01156e9403fa970c-popup

After all this seniority stuff gets floated unner the bridge,I’ll be fixin to have everyone over for some Bar-B-Que, beer and udder fun stiff,like a belly floppin contest.

http://c1915162.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/summer-redneck-games2.jpg

I one’s it las yar…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01388/redneck_1388972i.jpg

I got’s me a country hi-rise trailer, …..http://i1.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens3130832module19615172photo_1236502692hillbilly_redneck-mansion.jpg

We cans all pitch horse shoes….

http://www.rednecks.info/pictures/redneck-horseshoes.jpg

An well have plenty of beer...

http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/images/redneck_party_cooler.jpg

My sis Daisy had a great time las year…http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uu4KpLK_6gc/SOVU34DqBbI/AAAAAAAABnU/dVMscNHJ1YA/s400/redneck_pics_naptime.jpg

I jes cain’t wait to try out my new super security versionBar-B-Que

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/8/3/633533222041207585-OMGWTFBBQRedneckGrill.jpg

Yall come down now…hear?

Yer Frien,Cletus Festerpuss…Redneck Aviator
http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/65000/Air-Redneck--65220.jpg

 

[Cowboy75]

I got’s me this hear Micosoft Winders -Bubba version… It’s great.

http://swellguy.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d1ea853ef01156e9403fa970c-popup

After all this seniority stuff gets floated unner the bridge,I’ll be fixin to have everyone over for some Bar-B-Que, beer and udder fun stiff,like a belly floppin contest.

http://c1915162.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/summer-redneck-games2.jpg

I one’s it las yar…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01388/redneck_1388972i.jpg

I got’s me a country hi-rise trailer, …..http://i1.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens3130832module19615172photo_1236502692hillbilly_redneck-mansion.jpg

We cans all pitch horse shoes….

http://www.rednecks.info/pictures/redneck-horseshoes.jpg

An well have plenty of beer...

http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/images/redneck_party_cooler.jpg

My sis Daisy had a great time las year…http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uu4KpLK_6gc/SOVU34DqBbI/AAAAAAAABnU/dVMscNHJ1YA/s400/redneck_pics_naptime.jpg

I jes cain’t wait to try out my new super security versionBar-B-Que

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/8/3/633533222041207585-OMGWTFBBQRedneckGrill.jpg

Yall come down now…hear?

Yer Frien,Cletus Festerpuss…Redneck Aviator
http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/65000/Air-Redneck--65220.jpg

Cletus,

If I could find a Billy Beer, I'd toast you.

Thanks for the laugh...

 

[Cowboy75]

Leonidas update: Addington claim ripe.

Pending before Judge Wake are:
(i) Plaintiffs’ Rule 60 Motion For Relief From Judgment.
(ii) Plaintiffs’ Motion to Transfer US Airways’ Declaratory Action from Judge Silver.

Our Rule 60(b) motion was filed because the company’s declaratory action along with USAPA’s actions post 9th make the original Addington claim ripe. Since Addington was dismissed by Judges Tashima and Graber on ripeness grounds only, and since the ripeness analysis changed since the dismissal, Addington should be reopened. Both criminal and civil rules of procedure provide mechanisms for cases to be reopened by the district court if a party can show that changed circumstances warrant another look. For civil cases, that’s a Rule 60 “Relief From Judgment or Order” and that is what we filed on August 6th. What USAPA filed last Monday was their response (Doc 654) to our motion to reopen. It’s 20 pages and contains nothing unusual from USAPA legal. They make it all the way through two sentences before grossly mischaracterizing both our motion and what a Rule 60(b) is. Unlike what USAPA says, no one is asking Judge Wake to overturn the 9th Circuit. Such a request would be imbecilic and totally ineffectual. Perhaps, USAPA legal spit out their 20 pages without reading the actual 60(b) motion, but the changed circumstances which warrant the reopening of Addington is the company’s declaratory action, referred to as “US Airways” in our reply brief. The declaratory action raises the issue of negotiating seniority in the context of Section 2 of the RLA, which is virtually identical to the issue raised in Addington. The 9th Circuit dismissed our case for not being ripe. However, the ripeness analysis changed due to events subsequent to the 9th’s decision. The Addington attorneys laid it out clearly in our filing last week, our reply (doc 655) to USAPA’s response (doc 654) to our 60(b) motion:

“In other words, Addington is ripe if US Airways is ripe and US Airways is ripe because of events that occurred after the July 2009 judgment and injunction were vacated. US Airways requires a determination of USAPA’s breach of the duty of fair representation. That determination in US Airways will have preclusive effect in Addington. As such, both the West Pilots and USAPA would be precluded from contesting that issue in Addington. See Montana v. United States, 440 U.S. 147, 153 (1979). The factual dispute at the core of Addington would be subject to issue preclusion. At that point, there will be no prudential reason to delay a decision for lack of ripeness.” West Reply, Doc. 655, pg. 4.

The US Airways in italics refers to the company’s declaratory action. Mentioned in the second to last sentence in the quote above is a legal doctrine known as Issue Preclusion. This doctrine dates all the way back to common law, and the gist of it is that claims are not litigated twice. Once a court has decided an issue of law or fact necessary to reach a judgment, then that’s it for the issue – for eternity. The issue cannot be re-litigated in a future claim. Here, the present claim is the company’s declaratory action. If there is a final judgment on the issue of whether use of a non-Nicolau seniority list is an unfair labor practice (company’s declaratory action), then issue preclusion kicks in once we reach a joint contract and DFR II would be ripe as we would have already litigated this in the company’s case. Now, the final twist is that we have already conducted a trial on the merits concerning use of a non-Nicolau list, and that was DFR I. The ONLY reason that result is not with us today is because of ripeness. At this point, rather than cut and paste a few pages from Document 645 which is our 60(b) motion, we would direct the reader to click here and download it. It is worth reading the entire document as Addington attorneys connect the links of the ripeness chain that take us right back to DFR I, and why the company’s action coupled with USAPA action post 9th, make DFR I ripe. Since DFR I was dismissed only because of ripeness, and since DFR I is now ripe, Rule 60(b) allows us to ask the trial judge to reopen that case, which is exactly what we are asking Judge Wake to do. USAPA legal misses badly when they try to characterize the 60(b) motion as an attempt to overturn the circuit court. Nothing could be further from the truth. Once again, the trademark attack of USAPA legal is revealing itself: “. . . it’s ALPA’s, the West’s, the company’s, the arbitrator’s, and numerous players to be named later at fault. They’re wrong and we can do whatever we want because the RLA says so.”

29 months, and USAPA has nothing to show for their work. The only winner in this has been SSM&P.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I still don't think you'll get a court to agree that there is harm until the first east pilot achieves a gain due a west pilot ( or conversely a west pilot is improperly harmed)had Nicolau been implemented. My personal opinion is that once a joint contract is signed the fleet numbers will decrease and pilots will face furlough, the order of which will be the question.

US management would do better to ask the court to vacate the TA and allow the company to open new west pilot bases in east coast hubs with east coast equipment, if for nothing else the motivational factor for USAPA to do something.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I still don't think you'll get a court to agree that there is harm until the first east pilot achieves a gain due a west pilot ( or conversely a west pilot is improperly harmed)had Nicolau been implemented.

You mean, like West pilots being furloughed out of Nic seniority?

 

[Cowboy75]

Access Denied
A quick update from the PHX domicile meeting from one of the West reps:

For those that missed it or could not attend. Your reps put out a lot of good information covering a lot of subjects.

The more important thing that happened today that everyone should be aware of has to do with two nation USAPA officers. I invited Gary Hummel the new EVP and Rob Streble the S/T out to PHX to attend our meeting. They both agreed and showed up at the meeting about 30 minutes prior.

However they informed us that they had been “ordered” prohibited from attending the PHX domicile meeting. When we asked by whom or for what reason they declined to answer any questions. Simply saying that they would rather not talk about it.

So here we have two willing officer who came out to PHX and have been denied access to a domicile meeting by some unknown person.

Your reps find this completely unacceptable and lodged our complaint with the BPR. As we get more information we will let you know. But wanted to inform everyone that your national officer have been blocked access to the west pilots.
__________________
USAPA’s sole objective in adopting and presenting its seniority proposal to the Airline was to benefit East Pilots at the expense of West Pilots, rather than to benefit the bargaining unit as a whole.

 

[Ocity]

Access Denied
A quick update from the PHX domicile meeting from one of the West reps:

For those that missed it or could not attend. Your reps put out a lot of good information covering a lot of subjects.

The more important thing that happened today that everyone should be aware of has to do with two nation USAPA officers. I invited Gary Hummel the new EVP and Rob Streble the S/T out to PHX to attend our meeting. They both agreed and showed up at the meeting about 30 minutes prior.

However they informed us that they had been “ordered” prohibited from attending the PHX domicile meeting. When we asked by whom or for what reason they declined to answer any questions. Simply saying that they would rather not talk about it.

So here we have two willing officer who came out to PHX and have been denied access to a domicile meeting by some unknown person.

Your reps find this completely unacceptable and lodged our complaint with the BPR. As we get more information we will let you know. But wanted to inform everyone that your national officer have been blocked access to the west pilots.
__________________
USAPA’s sole objective in adopting and presenting its seniority proposal to the Airline was to benefit East Pilots at the expense of West Pilots, rather than to benefit the bargaining unit as a whole.

More Antics from USAPA...the organization that makes picket line crossing Scabs look like Ceasar Chavez.

 

[get2flyin]

Access Denied

The more important thing that happened today that everyone should be aware of has to do with two nation USAPA officers. I invited Gary Hummel the new EVP and Rob Streble the S/T out to PHX to attend our meeting. They both agreed and showed up at the meeting about 30 minutes prior.

However they informed us that they had been “ordered” prohibited from attending the PHX domicile meeting. When we asked by whom or for what reason they declined to answer any questions. Simply saying that they would rather not talk about it.

I cannot WAIT to hear how the USAPA leadership tries to explain this one away. Easties, care to take a stab at it?

 

[MCDU]

There are no east posters on here except for one or two 1999 hires. This is a forum visited by the pft generation. Also known as the entitlement generation. I do not think one single east pilot visits this site. Just a few 99's and some new hired. This is not the 1989 prior east crowd. That is on usaviation. Plenty of east posters. Not here.

M

 

[get2flyin]

There are no east posters on here except for one or two 1999 hires. This is a forum visited by the pft generation. Also known as the entitlement generation. I do not think one single east pilot visits this site. Just a few 99's and some new hired. This is not the 1989 prior east crowd. That is on usaviation. Plenty of east posters. Not here.

M

Don't ever be ashamed of who you are...even if it's nothing to be proud of.

 

[Cowboy75]

There are no east posters on here except for one or two 1999 hires. This is a forum visited by the pft generation. Also known as the entitlement generation. I do not think one single east pilot visits this site. Just a few 99's and some new hired. This is not the 1989 prior east crowd. That is on usaviation. Plenty of east posters. Not here.

M

Source: AOPA

USaviation.com, Laufer founded in 2000 with his brother Kurt and a fellow pilot, Kyle Zinn. In 1999, at age 23, Laufer had been hired by USAir to fly Boeing 737s. But as many airline new hires find out, having a job and holding a line can be two different things. "I needed something to keep me connected to aviation while I sat reserve at a crash pad," which is airline pilot code for hanging out on call while waiting for a regular flight schedule. The Internet site serves as a portal and search engine for pilots and aviation enthusiasts, and now records more than 28 million hits each month. The online community also gives professional pilots a forum for swapping information and networking. Laufer has launched two related sites on his own, buyaplane.com and aviationclassifieds.com, that he hopes will complement the information exchange already taking place daily in USAviation.com's electronic halls. AOPA members can get a free 30-day text ad on the site. After being furloughed following September 11, 2001, Laufer returned to corporate aviation (his first big break had been flying a Learjet 35 in Southern Florida after college). To parlay his interest in business aviation, Laufer launched CharterPro.com to "fill a communication void between Part 135 charter companies, charter brokers, and charter customers. It's a great tool that allows the charter customer to find great deals while helping the aircraft operator or broker utilize their aircraft and time more efficiently." The site currently has more than 100 aircraft operators and "dozens" of brokers using the system. But even a guy who flies big iron has a soft spot — and that's for tailwheel airplanes. Laufer began flying when a Delta Air Lines captain who based his Piper J-3 Cub at the airport at which Laufer pumped gas asked him, "So are you ready to learn how to fly?" Laufer got hooked on the Cub, and bought a Piper Clipper when he was 18. His first flying job was towing banners over Cape May, New Jersey, in a Cub, where he amassed 500 hours in a single summer. Last summer, with about 1,250 hours of tail time under his belt, Laufer determined it was time to launch his latest project, Tailwheel.com, the site of the Tailwheel Pilots Association. "I wanted to create a Web site where people that shared this common bond could discuss their favorite tailwheel-related topics. I hope to promote tailwheel flying and educate people about an amazing part of aviation that is still available to them."

Marty, after reading this, no wonder US Aviation is a East hot spot.

What generation would you consider Laufer belongs?

This Baby Boomer is curious.

 

[get2flyin]

Marty, after reading this, no wonder US Aviation is a East hot spot.

What generation would you consider Laufer belongs?

This Baby Boomer is curious.

Best laugh I've gotten all day. Nice find, Cowboy. Marty, do you have another witty rebuttal you'd care to offer?

 

[Cowboy75]

Best laugh I've gotten all day. Nice find, Cowboy. Marty, do you have another witty rebuttal you'd care to offer?

You know I like digggin this stuff up. I'm pretty impressed with Laufer.

I'll bet Marty wishes he had thought of being an internet guru. He's probably has a computer that is the size of refrigerator and you have to feed it punch cards. As you know, the East prefers paper bidding over computer bidding.

Still livin in the 70's & 80's.

 

[Deadalus]

Best laugh I've gotten all day. Nice find, Cowboy. Marty, do you have another witty rebuttal you'd care to offer?

Yeh, here's his rebuttal,"Duuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh." Oh wait, I mean, "Dooooooohhhhhhhhh.":laugh:

 

[St. Nic]

FYI Flightinfo is an unregulated, dissheveled webboard. USAviation has much more control over it and the whining westies can't post stupid drivel and get away with it. THats the difference.

 

[johnnyb]

US management would do better to ask the court to vacate the TA and allow the company to open new west pilot bases in east coast hubs with east coast equipment, if for nothing else the motivational factor for USAPA to do something.

Or, you may find the 24% of your block hours you current fly on East routes being brought back East when the TA min West block hours goes away.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Access Denied

The more important thing that happened today that everyone should be aware of has to do with two nation USAPA officers. I invited Gary Hummel the new EVP and Rob Streble the S/T out to PHX to attend our meeting. They both agreed and showed up at the meeting about 30 minutes prior.

However they informed us that they had been “ordered” prohibited from attending the PHX domicile meeting. When we asked by whom or for what reason they declined to answer any questions. Simply saying that they would rather not talk about it.

Did anyone ask them why their reply to "The Prohibitor" didn't end with .."up a rope!" ?

They sound like wimps to me. Strong enough to vote en masse, but too weak to stand up for their own rights.

Unless they actually stayed. Then they showed a micron more guts than Cleary and Mowery.

 

[Ocity]

Did anyone ask them why their reply to "The Prohibitor" didn't end with .."up a rope!" ?

They sound like wimps to me. Strong enough to vote en masse, but too weak to stand up for their own rights.

Unless they actually stayed. Then they showed a micron more guts than Cleary and Mowery.

I've said from Day 1 of USAPA that the entity and it's supporters are NOTHING BUT COWARDS.

I'm not surprised me in the least those Easthole, spineless, xxxxies would obey Kim Jong Cleary.

 

[get2flyin]

FYI Flightinfo is an unregulated, dissheveled webboard. USAviation has much more control over it and the whining westies can't post stupid drivel and get away with it. THats the difference.

So you're saying it's pretty much like USAPA? They insure the out-flow of information is "regulated" (your term) to only the party line, they squash any minority dissent, and they slap frivolous lawsuits on vocal critics? Wow, that sounds like a terrific social club you've got there...both the web-site and the "union" (and I use that term VERY loosely).

 

[St. Nic]

It's the union you must belong too. Thanks for paying your dues, we appreciate it out east and so does Seham. You guys are never going to figure out you picked a fight you just cannot win. The 9th should have told you something. BOttom line is the industry is shifting back to tradition- DOH is the standard and your lottery ticket will never get cashed. Hope you don't fall apart over the news, but that is just how it is. And I don't mean to say anything unusual around here, I only post facts. You guys post dreams. Have fun in your failures moving forward. DOH is here. Time for you to get on board.

 

[clr4theapch]

FYI Flightinfo is an unregulated, dissheveled webboard. USAviation has much more control over it and the whining westies can't post stupid drivel and get away with it. THats the difference.

Thanks for the respect towards all of the moderators hard work to keep from kicking your butt off FI.. if you think the other aviation board is so great then fel free to requst my assistance with your FI membership.. I'll be more than happy to hell you out...

 

[Ocity]

It's the union you must belong too. Thanks for paying your dues, we appreciate it out east and so does Seham.

Coward.

 

[Captzaahlie]

what a piece of ******************** airline i got furloughed from.....

 

[get2flyin]

It's the union you must belong too. Thanks for paying your dues, we appreciate it out east and so does Seham. You guys are never going to figure out you picked a fight you just cannot win. The 9th should have told you something. BOttom line is the industry is shifting back to tradition- DOH is the standard and your lottery ticket will never get cashed. Hope you don't fall apart over the news, but that is just how it is. And I don't mean to say anything unusual around here, I only post facts. You guys post dreams. Have fun in your failures moving forward. DOH is here. Time for you to get on board.

(Sigh) Oh, Nic...you are entertaining. You never really answer tough questions. You just say stuff like, "You Westies will never get to cash your lottery ticket", and "DOH is the gold standard". You hope to invoke an equal or greater emotional come back because that's pretty much all ya got. Oh wait, you said you post only facts so...whew...guess I can't argue with YOU.

IT looks like USAPA is going to get the snapbacks! More to follow. You westies will be wishing on a star to work for our rates!!!

But hey, if you're really in the mood to be yappy....how's the snapback working out for ya? No word since you advised the Westies to start wishing on a star. What's the latest there? Also, you never actually answered the question about the USAPIANS refusal to participate in the Phoenix council meeting. You're cool with that?

 

[get2flyin]

Thanks for the respect towards all of the moderators hard work to keep from kicking your butt off FI.. if you think the other aviation board is so great then fel free to requst my assistance with your FI membership.. I'll be more than happy to hell you out...

LOL. Yeah, we're sick of him. Let's hell him out!

 

[Ocity]

Also, you never actually answered the question about the USAPIANS refusal to participate in the Phoenix council meeting. You're cool with that?

Of COURSE he's cool with that!!! That's the whole point...they have no intention of actually representing the West. None. USAPA is out to destroy and that's it, (unless of course the West becomes a willing victim as is hoped). Luckily, impotent cowards aren't all that effective. 29 months and ZERO to show for it?

DFRII, will be a slam dunk like DFRI.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Of COURSE he's cool with that!!! That's the whole point...they have no intention of actually representing the West. None. USAPA is out to destroy and that's it, (unless of course the West becomes a willing victim as is hoped). Luckily, impotent cowards aren't all that effective. 29 months and ZERO to show for it?

DFRII, will be a slam dunk like DFRI.

very true....