Senate Hearing on Regional Pilots

[turbinesurgeon]

That comes with the business...Are you going to propose that we can't change schedules during a bid period? We shouldn't be able to go from "early" to "late" duty in's? That will make life worse....


I just had to do this Colgan scenario in the sim and I had to do it a second time because I started the recovery before the pusher set in....You will now have to ignore the shaker and demonstrate the stall AFTER the pusher.....Sorry I'm getting tired of stupid procedures after other people screw up.....

Experience should count for something....We ignored experience and many of us predicted an outcome like this.....Enough is enough of using a 121 cockpit as a way to gain experience and "learn".

I don't think you understand the circadia swap. You might have never had one. I didn't understand it until I got my first trip with one built into it, its not a matter of switching early or late show in the bid.

Example of a 4 day trip that I experienced with a circadia swap.

Day one 1430 show and end 0000
Day two 1130 show and end 2100
Day three off 32 hours of rest from duty out.
Day four 0500 show end 1430

It looks like an easy trip but there isn't enough time for most people to switch their circadia clock. I have done a lot of am pm flips but this one killed me. Day four I had to wake up before my deep sleep, after the first leg it had felt like I hadn't had any sleep. Why do they build trips like this, to save money and not have a another crew overnight for the early flight.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMerchant
- On Tuesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 5:30 a.m., flew three short flights and ended his day in Buffalo at 12:59 that afternoon.

- On Wednesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 6:15 a.m., flew three more short flights ending at his crew base in Newark at 3:44 p.m. that afternoon.

- On Thursday, the day of the accident, Captain Renslow had a report time of 1:30 p.m., nearly 22 hours after he came off duty the day before.

Just note that he had been dutying in very early (and therefore had been going to bed early), but then on the accident day he had to stay up relatively late. A change in the circadian rhythm can cause just as much fatigue as a lack of sleep hours.


Are you suggesting that giving this guy extra sleep was a bad thing? That is purely moronic.

Thats not what he is saying at all, read this research by NASA real slow, its worth it. http://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/zteam/

 

[JustaNumber]

That comes with the business...Are you going to propose that we can't change schedules during a bid period? We shouldn't be able to go from "early" to "late" duty in's? That will make life worse....

I made no judgement about making life worse or better. I am just pointing out the science of fatigue, and pointing out that science has proven that one can come off of 22 hours of rest but still be fatigued. (Since the captain was accustomed to waking at 4 or 5 am, he would have been in the 16th or 17th hour of wakefulness at the time of the accident). Either we're serious about "scheduling with safety" (I think I heard that somewhere), or we're not. Just something to think about.

 

[JustaNumber]

How is that done without increasing costs and there by decreasing jobs?

I'm not an expert, but it could happen this way:
New scheduling rules force more rest and fewer duty hours. Airlines cancel flights they can't cover with existing workforce. (Note: all pilots still fully employed). Fewer seats available in the market = higher costs for remaining seats. Airline RASM increases to compensate for loss of number of seats flown. Airlines win with reduced overhead and same revenue. Pilots win by being more rested. Passengers win by being less likely to be killed by a fatigued pilot. Pilotyip wins and thanks JustaNumber.

 

[pilotyip]

Increased costs

Pilotyip wins and thanks JustaNumber.

By flying the airplanes fewer hours per day you have less varible income to cover a fixed cost, so now more of each RSM goes to fixed cost. This will result in higher fares for break even. Higher prices for tickets results in fewer passengers, which result in fewer Captains, fewer pilots. BTW This not even begin to address fatique for crew flying international flights crossing 3,5, eve n6 time zones on 10-16 hours flights.

 

[papanovember]

Day one 1430 show and end 0000
Day two 1130 show and end 2100
Day three off 32 hours of rest from duty out.
Day four 0500 show end 1430

That's not a circadia swap

Day one 1530 show and end 0000 5 legs
Day two 1330 show and end 2130 6 legs
Day three 0545 show end 1630 4 legs
Day four 0500 show end 1630 6 legs with all quick turns.

We have many four days built that way.

Or

Do late PM ready get called out at 8pm to dead head to the overnight. 8 hour overnight. Fly back in the morning done at 7 and released into 10 hours "rest" for a 5pm show in the afternoon for another trip. Real nice when you don't have a place in base to stay at yet. I called in fatigued for that one.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't think you understand the circadia swap. You might have never had one. I didn't understand it until I got my first trip with one built into it, its not a matter of switching early or late show in the bid.

I've been doing them for 15 years...I understand them very well...They come with the business and I do them....My main interest is getting as many days off as possible..

As I said, the FAA is now having us demonstrate both the PCL 410 stall and the Colgan stall....Fatigue is no excuse for either accident....Lack of experience is much more of a factor....

Safety is important, but throwing out the fatigue flag when it was really something else that caused it, diminishes real fatigue....

 

[Browntothebone]

I've been doing them for 15 years...I understand them very well...They come with the business and I do them....My main interest is getting as many days off as possible..

As I said, the FAA is now having us demonstrate both the PCL 410 stall and the Colgan stall....Fatigue is no excuse for either accident....Lack of experience is much more of a factor....

Safety is important, but throwing out the fatigue flag when it was really something else that caused it, diminishes real fatigue....

That is the reason why the FAA is having all the regionals demonstrate proficiency in stick pusher recoveries, since you are inexperienced compared to a typical major pilot. The majors don't have to do this in their sim training.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

I've been doing them for 15 years...I understand them very well...They come with the business and I do them....My main interest is getting as many days off as possible..

As I said, the FAA is now having us demonstrate both the PCL 410 stall and the Colgan stall....Fatigue is no excuse for either accident....Lack of experience is much more of a factor....

Safety is important, but throwing out the fatigue flag when it was really something else that caused it, diminishes real fatigue....

The topic is getting the government involved and looking into factors such as fatigue. I didn't say it was the root cause of the accident but merely having a discussion about fatigue and personal responsibility which seems you might have a lack of. I am not trying to be hard on you but you obviously don't take fatigue seriously and you would rather fly fatigued in order to get the most amount of days off if I read your post correctly. If you really are an experienced captain, is this the way you foster your F.Os?
I think lack of professionalism and discipline was big factor in the PCL accident. How do you know that fatigue was not a factor in the Colgan accident? You don't.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The topic is getting the government involved and looking into factors such as fatigue. I didn't say it was the root cause of the accident but merely having a discussion about fatigue and personal responsibility which seems you might have a lack of. I am not trying to be hard on you but you obviously don't take fatigue seriously and you would rather fly fatigued in order to get the most amount of days off if I read your post correctly. If you really are an experienced captain, is this the way you foster your F.Os?
I think lack of professionalism and discipline was big factor in the PCL accident. How do you know that fatigue was not a factor in the Colgan accident? You don't.

First you accuse me of not understanding circadiam swap.....despite having done them for 15 years...Then you accuse me of a "lack of personal responsibilty".....If I am fatigued...I will remove myself from the trip....If I get home safely....so will everyone else....I don't have a death wish.....

Going from early duty ins to late duty ins is doable...It isn't easy, but life ain't easy....Doctors have it far worse than we do with regards to rest...This isn't the profession for those who want a nice easy 9-5 schedule with weekends and holidays off....What draws me to this job is the time off...I can deal with the unusual schedules....

Colgan and PCL were lack of experience....Let's deal with the root cause....Lack of experience has been well known to many of us....