Senate Hearing on Regional Pilots

[turbinesurgeon]

People are stupid. You get what you pay for.....period. It's cliche but it's true. $100K a year gets you a comfortable, experienced, well rested, happy pilot. $18K gets you an inexperienced, tired, commuting across the country b/c they can't afford to live in base, never seen IFR, never seen ice pilot.


Time to get rid of the time builders and 40 year old mid-life crisis pilots that made all their money being accountants and lawyers. This is a profession and we should be paid that way. What if pilots changed their minds and became lawyers and said they would work for 5 bucks an hour because they just love litigation, or they did taxes for everybody for free, because accountimg is awesome. What would happen to them?? We could bring down an entire industry just like they did. Bottom line, we need dedicated, trained pilots, that don't work for peanuts. Get rid of ALPO and let every company have their own union.

I don't think throwing money at the problem is necessarily the answer. I have seen a lot of poor decision making on the line. People don't use the fatigue call enough when needed or at all. I hear many pilots talk about their crappy schedules and flying tired. Why don't they call in fatigue? because they will lose money is one of the biggest motivators I believe. Someone here will say if you are only making 18K, you can't afford to call in fatigue, well if this Colgan crash doesn't wake you up then I don't know what will. Dying is permanent.

IMHO I think its sad we have to get Bureaucrats involved to make the decisions for us. I really believe we do get what we pay for. But a lot the new generation of pilots wastes all of their money on stupid $hit and as a result they make poor decisions like buying a new Iphone instead of health insurance. 18K or 100k they will piss it all away. I guess Mommy Government will fix everything since they are the really smart people who knows whats best for us. If you are smart you can live off of the 18K per year. and commute safely. If you can't than maybe you should do something else and leave this profession for the professionals.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Looks like the House Aviation sub committee Chairman Costello will propose legislation requiring an ATP for first officers. Let's see if it comes to fruition.

Sounds great....wonder why ALPA never pushed for it? Rez? PCL128?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I hear many pilots talk about their crappy schedules and flying tired. Why don't they call in fatigue? because they will lose money is one of the biggest motivators I believe. Someone here will say if you are only making 18K, you can't afford to call in fatigue, well if this Colgan crash doesn't wake you up then I don't know what will. Dying is permanent.

How long had the Colgan crew been on duty?

 

[XJohXJ]

I don't think throwing money at the problem is necessarily the answer. I have seen a lot of poor decision making on the line. People don't use the fatigue call enough when needed or at all. I hear many pilots talk about their crappy schedules and flying tired. Why don't they call in fatigue? because they will lose money is one of the biggest motivators I believe. Someone here will say if you are only making 18K, you can't afford to call in fatigue, well if this Colgan crash doesn't wake you up then I don't know what will. Dying is permanent.

IMHO I think its sad we have to get Bureaucrats involved to make the decisions for us. I really believe we do get what we pay for. But a lot the new generation of pilots wastes all of their money on stupid $hit and as a result they make poor decisions like buying a new Iphone instead of health insurance. 18K or 100k they will piss it all away. I guess Mommy Government will fix everything since they are the really smart people who knows whats best for us. If you are smart you can live off of the 18K per year. and commute safely. If you can't than maybe you should do something else and leave this profession for the professionals.

Well, for one thing, many regional airlines, including my own, punish and harass pilots who call in fatigued. You are a being very unrealistic if you don't think that the very real threat of very real punishment is not going to nudge the majority of pilots towards "don't call fatigued" when making the decision.

Another point worth mentioning: There is solid evidence that fatigued people act in an equivalent manner to drunk people. Drunk (fatigued) people, by definition, do not have the physical capability (while fatigued) to employ sound judgement. Unfortunately, the current law requires the pilot to be the only one using judgement as to whether or not he or she is fatigued (rather than using established science to create reasonably non-fatiguing schedules). So, just when a pilot is not capable of judging his or her level of fatigue, throw in the knowledge of almost guaranteed company punishment/harrasement, and then expect the pilot to pull it together to make the fatige call, what can you expect?

The current system is crazy, non-functional, and unrealistic. Ever hear a drunk say "I'm okay to drive". Well, it's the same when a fatigued pilot says "I'm okay to fly". When they need the judgement, by definition, they don't have it.

Fix the system and stop blaming the pilots.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

How long had the Colgan crew been on duty?

I don't know about the duty time but the FO commuted in and slept in the crew room for several hours.

My point is the decision making, I have seen Mesa schedules that someone posted here that made me fatigue just looking at it. The people who fly those schedules fatigued are making poor decisions and now we need the government to get involved to make the decision that should have been made by professionals. With enough rules and regulations there won't be a need for professionals we just have to idiot proof everything.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

Well, for one thing, many regional airlines, including my own, punish and harass pilots who call in fatigued. You are a being very unrealistic if you don't think that the very real threat of very real punishment is not going to nudge the majority of pilots towards "don't call fatigued" when making the decision.

Another point worth mentioning: There is solid evidence that fatigued people act in an equivalent manner to drunk people. Drunk (fatigued) people, by definition, do not have the physical capability (while fatigued) to employ sound judgement. Unfortunately, the current law requires the pilot to be the only one using judgement as to whether or not he or she is fatigued (rather than using established science to create reasonably non-fatiguing schedules). So, just when a pilot is not capable of judging his or her level of fatigue, throw in the knowledge of almost guaranteed company punishment/harrasement, and then expect the pilot to pull it together to make the fatige call, what can you expect?

The current system is crazy, non-functional, and unrealistic. Ever hear a drunk say "I'm okay to drive". Well, it's the same when a fatigued pilot says "I'm okay to fly". When they need the judgement, by definition, they don't have it.

Fix the system and stop blaming the pilots.

I have flown for several airlines, if there is an airline out there that takes punitive action against pilots needs to be reported to the FAA. The only punitive action I had ever received was no pay, oh well. What is the punitive action? and which airlines do it?

My private pilot instructor taught me about fatigue and being prepared for flight, why can't a professional pilot do the same? and most people in the regionals were CFI's at one time.

It doesn't take much experience to figure out when you are fatigued.
personal responsibility!

I watched a video in a defensive driving class that compared a group of people that were drunk versus a group of people who were fatigued. They let the two groups drive cars through an obstacle course and the drunk people did much better.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't know about the duty time but the FO commuted in and slept in the crew room for several hours.

My point is the decision making, I have seen Mesa schedules that someone posted here that made me fatigue just looking at it. The people who fly those schedules fatigued are making poor decisions and now we need the government to get involved to make the decision that should have been made by professionals. With enough rules and regulations there won't be a need for professionals we just have to idiot proof everything.

I don't think duty time was a factor....If you choose to commute, then you are responsible for arriving rested. I am concerned that the "solution" will be worse....I can see more days at work as a result of shorter duty days....

Experience is more of a factor....Address that issue and many other problems will get better...

 

[turbinesurgeon]

Well, for one thing, many regional airlines, including my own, punish and harass pilots who call in fatigued. You are a being very unrealistic if you don't think that the very real threat of very real punishment is not going to nudge the majority of pilots towards "don't call fatigued" when making the decision.

Another point worth mentioning: There is solid evidence that fatigued people act in an equivalent manner to drunk people. Drunk (fatigued) people, by definition, do not have the physical capability (while fatigued) to employ sound judgement. Unfortunately, the current law requires the pilot to be the only one using judgement as to whether or not he or she is fatigued (rather than using established science to create reasonably non-fatiguing schedules). So, just when a pilot is not capable of judging his or her level of fatigue, throw in the knowledge of almost guaranteed company punishment/harrasement, and then expect the pilot to pull it together to make the fatige call, what can you expect?

The current system is crazy, non-functional, and unrealistic. Ever hear a drunk say "I'm okay to drive". Well, it's the same when a fatigued pilot says "I'm okay to fly". When they need the judgement, by definition, they don't have it.

Fix the system and stop blaming the pilots.

I just saw that you fly for XJ, I did as well, I was never punished for calling in fatigued. Is there new rules or something?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Here was the schedule for the captain. The day of the crash he reported at 1:30 PM after 22 hours of scheduled rest...

Flight Crew Fatigue

? If there was a fatigue issue with the flight crew, it was not due to their work schedule, which provided rest periods far in excess of FAA requirements.

? Captain Renslow had nearly 22 consecutive hours of time off before he reported for duty on the day of the accident. That was more than sufficient time for him to obtain adequate rest, and nearly three times the FAA-minimum required rest period.

? His schedule for the week of the accident was also light enough that he had ample time for rest.

- On Monday, after having four full days off, Captain Renslow commuted from Tampa to Newark, arriving at 8:00 p.m.

- On Tuesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 5:30 a.m., flew three short flights and ended his day in Buffalo at 12:59 that afternoon.

- On Wednesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 6:15 a.m., flew three more short flights ending at his crew base in Newark at 3:44 p.m. that afternoon.

- On Thursday, the day of the accident, Captain Renslow had a report time of 1:30 p.m., nearly 22 hours after he came off duty the day before.

 

[relief tube]

"escape goat"... what you ride out of a burning barn? :laugh:

thats pretty damn funny

 

[Brody1]

I have flown for several airlines, if there is an airline out there that takes punitive action against pilots needs to be reported to the FAA./QUOTE]

Please don't take offense, but what planet are you from? Granted, not all Regionals are the same. There are a few out there whose POI's are, shall we say, a bit unethical. Just because this stuff doesn't happen at one airline doesn't mean it doesn't happen at another.

 

[JustaNumber]

- On Tuesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 5:30 a.m., flew three short flights and ended his day in Buffalo at 12:59 that afternoon.

- On Wednesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 6:15 a.m., flew three more short flights ending at his crew base in Newark at 3:44 p.m. that afternoon.

- On Thursday, the day of the accident, Captain Renslow had a report time of 1:30 p.m., nearly 22 hours after he came off duty the day before.

Just note that he had been dutying in very early (and therefore had been going to bed early), but then on the accident day he had to stay up relatively late. A change in the circadian rhythm can cause just as much fatigue as a lack of sleep hours.

 

[JustaNumber]

I have flown for several airlines, if there is an airline out there that takes punitive action against pilots needs to be reported to the FAA. The only punitive action I had ever received was no pay, oh well. What is the punitive action? and which airlines do it?

It doesn't take much experience to figure out when you are fatigued.
personal responsibility!

It's more complicated than that. Pilots are goal oriented. When they are given a task, they do their best to complete the task. When crew scheduling assigns you to minimum rest (or anything less than 10 hours on the ground), you don't need to "figure out you are fatigued." You know you will be fatigued the moment the schedule is assigned; the company is asking you to fly fatigued. So if they say they won't pressure you to fly fatigued, they are talking out of both sides of their mouth, because they are asking you/requiring you to. Sure, you can decline the assignment, but not many do, because that's how airlines operate. We all know the airline would shut down if we did, and so it just doesn't happen. That's how the game has been played for years, and it will take the FAA or the company to change the culture.

 

[pilotyip]

Solution?

it will take the FAA or the company to change the culture.

How is that done without increasing costs and there by decreasing jobs?

 

[turbinesurgeon]

I have flown for several airlines, if there is an airline out there that takes punitive action against pilots needs to be reported to the FAA./QUOTE]

Please don't take offense, but what planet are you from? Granted, not all Regionals are the same. There are a few out there whose POI's are, shall we say, a bit unethical. Just because this stuff doesn't happen at one airline doesn't mean it doesn't happen at another.

I think there is an illusion of punishment. I know XJhoXJ isn't correct because I flew at his airline and I was calling him out on it.

Nobody here has presented a specific punitive action that was taken against them for calling in fatigue. I know of other airlines that take punitive action for pilots refusing a trip but not calling in fatigue. The fact is there isn't an airline in the U.S. that would have any form of action taken against a crew member for a fatigue call, not even Mesa, if there ever was such a situation than I would recommend that pilot obtain an attorney because he/she would have a very good case.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

It's more complicated than that. Pilots are goal oriented. When they are given a task, they do their best to complete the task. When crew scheduling assigns you to minimum rest (or anything less than 10 hours on the ground), you don't need to "figure out you are fatigued." You know you will be fatigued the moment the schedule is assigned; the company is asking you to fly fatigued. So if they say they won't pressure you to fly fatigued, they are talking out of both sides of their mouth, because they are asking you/requiring you to. Sure, you can decline the assignment, but not many do, because that's how airlines operate. We all know the airline would shut down if we did, and so it just doesn't happen. That's how the game has been played for years, and it will take the FAA or the company to change the culture.

Thats not how the "game" use to be played. Airlines are demanding twice the load from pilots becasue they know they are "goal oriented" and not safety oriented anymore. You guys can keep rationalizing it but the burden of safety rests on your shoulders. The pilot needs to be airworthy as well as the aircraft. I'm not talking about flying a little tired but we all know when we are fatigued. The airline won't go out of business because you called in fatigue but it will go out of business because of the economy.

 

[XJohXJ]

..................................

Yes, you are correct, no company is going to put a letter in a pilot's file stating "so and so pilot called in fatigued and now we are punishing him". That would be legal suicide.

My point is that many airlines have strong disincentives awaiting those who call in fatigued. Those strong disincentives, subtle, perceived, whatever, combined with an overall culture which encourages flying on reduced rest and flipped schedules, combine to make pilots less willing to use that fatigue call.

It is not easy to call in fatigued, by any means, and it should be.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just note that he had been dutying in very early (and therefore had been going to bed early), but then on the accident day he had to stay up relatively late. A change in the circadian rhythm can cause just as much fatigue as a lack of sleep hours.

That comes with the business...Are you going to propose that we can't change schedules during a bid period? We shouldn't be able to go from "early" to "late" duty in's? That will make life worse....


I just had to do this Colgan scenario in the sim and I had to do it a second time because I started the recovery before the pusher set in....You will now have to ignore the shaker and demonstrate the stall AFTER the pusher.....Sorry I'm getting tired of stupid procedures after other people screw up.....

Experience should count for something....We ignored experience and many of us predicted an outcome like this.....Enough is enough of using a 121 cockpit as a way to gain experience and "learn".

 

[Microclimates]

Looks like the House Aviation sub committee Chairman Costello will propose legislation requiring an ATP for first officers. Let's see if it comes to fruition.

I don't get why the FO is getting the ******************** sandwich. She was the PNF, and while she certainly not the reason why they bought the farm. So she should have spoken up when the airspeed trend developed etc etc (assuming she wasn't doing somehting else at the time-- I still find it hard to believe that any pilot would just sit there staring at the gauge without at least letting out an "uuhh")

I got my FO job with an ATP in my wallet already, so I don't feel personally invested in the whole deal. It does piss me off however that most of the attention has shifted to the FO and her commuting etc etc, while the disastrous performance of the Captain is an afterthought.

What also pisses me off is this whole rush to change things up when all we have to do is enforce the system that is already in place:
1) are you fatigued? Don't fly. I have also been at 19k for the year, commuting from ORD to LAX for my first year, so I'm not talking out of my ass.

2) if a company sucks ass at: mx, training, hiring, standards please mr. FAA grow a pair and go after their certificate. It is amazing that Colgan not only is still flying, but is actually expanding (more 400s for Co).

I could go on but it all has been said before. what a pain.

 

[DCAA320]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMerchant
- On Tuesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 5:30 a.m., flew three short flights and ended his day in Buffalo at 12:59 that afternoon.

- On Wednesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 6:15 a.m., flew three more short flights ending at his crew base in Newark at 3:44 p.m. that afternoon.

- On Thursday, the day of the accident, Captain Renslow had a report time of 1:30 p.m., nearly 22 hours after he came off duty the day before.

Just note that he had been dutying in very early (and therefore had been going to bed early), but then on the accident day he had to stay up relatively late. A change in the circadian rhythm can cause just as much fatigue as a lack of sleep hours.


Are you suggesting that giving this guy extra sleep was a bad thing? That is purely moronic.