Senate Hearing on Regional Pilots

[Brody1]

I have flown for several airlines, if there is an airline out there that takes punitive action against pilots needs to be reported to the FAA./QUOTE]

Please don't take offense, but what planet are you from? Granted, not all Regionals are the same. There are a few out there whose POI's are, shall we say, a bit unethical. Just because this stuff doesn't happen at one airline doesn't mean it doesn't happen at another.

 

[JustaNumber]

- On Tuesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 5:30 a.m., flew three short flights and ended his day in Buffalo at 12:59 that afternoon.

- On Wednesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 6:15 a.m., flew three more short flights ending at his crew base in Newark at 3:44 p.m. that afternoon.

- On Thursday, the day of the accident, Captain Renslow had a report time of 1:30 p.m., nearly 22 hours after he came off duty the day before.

Just note that he had been dutying in very early (and therefore had been going to bed early), but then on the accident day he had to stay up relatively late. A change in the circadian rhythm can cause just as much fatigue as a lack of sleep hours.

 

[JustaNumber]

I have flown for several airlines, if there is an airline out there that takes punitive action against pilots needs to be reported to the FAA. The only punitive action I had ever received was no pay, oh well. What is the punitive action? and which airlines do it?

It doesn't take much experience to figure out when you are fatigued.
personal responsibility!

It's more complicated than that. Pilots are goal oriented. When they are given a task, they do their best to complete the task. When crew scheduling assigns you to minimum rest (or anything less than 10 hours on the ground), you don't need to "figure out you are fatigued." You know you will be fatigued the moment the schedule is assigned; the company is asking you to fly fatigued. So if they say they won't pressure you to fly fatigued, they are talking out of both sides of their mouth, because they are asking you/requiring you to. Sure, you can decline the assignment, but not many do, because that's how airlines operate. We all know the airline would shut down if we did, and so it just doesn't happen. That's how the game has been played for years, and it will take the FAA or the company to change the culture.

 

[pilotyip]

Solution?

it will take the FAA or the company to change the culture.

How is that done without increasing costs and there by decreasing jobs?

 

[turbinesurgeon]

I have flown for several airlines, if there is an airline out there that takes punitive action against pilots needs to be reported to the FAA./QUOTE]

Please don't take offense, but what planet are you from? Granted, not all Regionals are the same. There are a few out there whose POI's are, shall we say, a bit unethical. Just because this stuff doesn't happen at one airline doesn't mean it doesn't happen at another.

I think there is an illusion of punishment. I know XJhoXJ isn't correct because I flew at his airline and I was calling him out on it.

Nobody here has presented a specific punitive action that was taken against them for calling in fatigue. I know of other airlines that take punitive action for pilots refusing a trip but not calling in fatigue. The fact is there isn't an airline in the U.S. that would have any form of action taken against a crew member for a fatigue call, not even Mesa, if there ever was such a situation than I would recommend that pilot obtain an attorney because he/she would have a very good case.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

It's more complicated than that. Pilots are goal oriented. When they are given a task, they do their best to complete the task. When crew scheduling assigns you to minimum rest (or anything less than 10 hours on the ground), you don't need to "figure out you are fatigued." You know you will be fatigued the moment the schedule is assigned; the company is asking you to fly fatigued. So if they say they won't pressure you to fly fatigued, they are talking out of both sides of their mouth, because they are asking you/requiring you to. Sure, you can decline the assignment, but not many do, because that's how airlines operate. We all know the airline would shut down if we did, and so it just doesn't happen. That's how the game has been played for years, and it will take the FAA or the company to change the culture.

Thats not how the "game" use to be played. Airlines are demanding twice the load from pilots becasue they know they are "goal oriented" and not safety oriented anymore. You guys can keep rationalizing it but the burden of safety rests on your shoulders. The pilot needs to be airworthy as well as the aircraft. I'm not talking about flying a little tired but we all know when we are fatigued. The airline won't go out of business because you called in fatigue but it will go out of business because of the economy.

 

[XJohXJ]

..................................

Yes, you are correct, no company is going to put a letter in a pilot's file stating "so and so pilot called in fatigued and now we are punishing him". That would be legal suicide.

My point is that many airlines have strong disincentives awaiting those who call in fatigued. Those strong disincentives, subtle, perceived, whatever, combined with an overall culture which encourages flying on reduced rest and flipped schedules, combine to make pilots less willing to use that fatigue call.

It is not easy to call in fatigued, by any means, and it should be.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just note that he had been dutying in very early (and therefore had been going to bed early), but then on the accident day he had to stay up relatively late. A change in the circadian rhythm can cause just as much fatigue as a lack of sleep hours.

That comes with the business...Are you going to propose that we can't change schedules during a bid period? We shouldn't be able to go from "early" to "late" duty in's? That will make life worse....


I just had to do this Colgan scenario in the sim and I had to do it a second time because I started the recovery before the pusher set in....You will now have to ignore the shaker and demonstrate the stall AFTER the pusher.....Sorry I'm getting tired of stupid procedures after other people screw up.....

Experience should count for something....We ignored experience and many of us predicted an outcome like this.....Enough is enough of using a 121 cockpit as a way to gain experience and "learn".

 

[Microclimates]

Looks like the House Aviation sub committee Chairman Costello will propose legislation requiring an ATP for first officers. Let's see if it comes to fruition.

I don't get why the FO is getting the ******************** sandwich. She was the PNF, and while she certainly not the reason why they bought the farm. So she should have spoken up when the airspeed trend developed etc etc (assuming she wasn't doing somehting else at the time-- I still find it hard to believe that any pilot would just sit there staring at the gauge without at least letting out an "uuhh")

I got my FO job with an ATP in my wallet already, so I don't feel personally invested in the whole deal. It does piss me off however that most of the attention has shifted to the FO and her commuting etc etc, while the disastrous performance of the Captain is an afterthought.

What also pisses me off is this whole rush to change things up when all we have to do is enforce the system that is already in place:
1) are you fatigued? Don't fly. I have also been at 19k for the year, commuting from ORD to LAX for my first year, so I'm not talking out of my ass.

2) if a company sucks ass at: mx, training, hiring, standards please mr. FAA grow a pair and go after their certificate. It is amazing that Colgan not only is still flying, but is actually expanding (more 400s for Co).

I could go on but it all has been said before. what a pain.

 

[DCAA320]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMerchant
- On Tuesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 5:30 a.m., flew three short flights and ended his day in Buffalo at 12:59 that afternoon.

- On Wednesday, Captain Renslow had a report time of 6:15 a.m., flew three more short flights ending at his crew base in Newark at 3:44 p.m. that afternoon.

- On Thursday, the day of the accident, Captain Renslow had a report time of 1:30 p.m., nearly 22 hours after he came off duty the day before.

Just note that he had been dutying in very early (and therefore had been going to bed early), but then on the accident day he had to stay up relatively late. A change in the circadian rhythm can cause just as much fatigue as a lack of sleep hours.


Are you suggesting that giving this guy extra sleep was a bad thing? That is purely moronic.