Seat swapping????

[Gulfstream 200]

luckily we dont have older guys who are upset younger fellas are able to be PIC's........they actually like it as they dont have to circle the globe as much anymore!! -- check the ego at the door thanks.

As far as all crews wearing 4 stripes at some outfits...Its amazing how one can seem to be pleased wearing 4 stripes even if you pay him like the SIC he really is..hey he's a CAPTAIN....err....CO-CAPTAIN I mean...after all, he did go to FSI and pass a PIC check...whoaaa.....call him CAP-EE-TANN..a monkeys penis could pass a PIC check in a FSI sim so long as there is a check pinned to the balls.

..again its the careful stroking of the dumb pilot ego....

Me?..well... Im a simple prik. You can CALL me anything you want....- even an a$$hole (as some here have!) - Just dont PAY me like an a$$hole...

 

[aroundtheblock]

This is how we do it at my flight ops... There are only 2 in our dept. I hired a low time guy who happens to be a good stick. He is typed in the airplane and we alternate legs in the left seat. He gains great experience flying left seat regardless of the weather. If it is his leg and an emergency occurs, which it has, it is still his leg. But rest assured, even though he is flying, I am always the Captain. He can fly it his way and on rare occasions I reccommend alternate techniques or thought. That isn't an ego thing, it's my job, to ensure safety and help mold the next generation of pilots. If something breaks or someone gets hurt the boss isn't going to ask who was flying, he will ask why I let it happen.

 

[Bandit60]

aroundtheblock

You said it exactly right. That is the same way we operate at our operation. Both pilots are qualified but the Capt. is still responsible. Don't forget type rated pilots can log pic but the Capt is still in charge. Like you said it is not an ego thing it is a responsiblity thing.

 

[gear_guy]

Both pilots are qualified but the Capt. is still responsible.

I think you are missing the point. If both are qualified, why can't both pilots be co-captains. The one in the left seat is the PIC/Captain for that leg of the flight. The other co-captain in the right seat is the SIC for that leg. Then they alternate every leg. That way when there is a screw up the boss can just ask, "who was flying?" And that pilot will be held responsible. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? I think we tend to get so hung up on what seat we sit in that we forget that our goal is to get pax to their destination safely. I just cant understand why anyone would be against this. I mean I understand the concept of paying your dues, but once you have some time in the aircraft, cut the guy loose. After all, you're not sending him out with an inexperienced SIC. He'll be with another captain. Someone give me a good reason why this will not work.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

well..

if its just two pilots in the whole operation and you both agree to this...why not!? whatever makes you happy..

start adding some more pilots and varying levels of experience and talent...then you better start designating a PIC per trip. Duties are defined by PIC/SIC...PIC files,calls handlers etc...SIC preflights etc....has nothing to do with seats..just the best way to be sure things get done...standards I suppose..

 

[aroundtheblock]

I have to agree with G-200. Gear guy I think you miss the point. There is a big difference between pilot flying/pilot not flying and PIC/SIC. There have been many occurances in my flying career I had more experience both total time and time in the airplane but was SIC on a flight. Some departments assign it by seniority, others by chief pilot assignment. But the fact remains you need a designated leader. Gear Guy, the majors, regionals, military, and charter all do it this way for a reason. There has to be a chain of command, and if you are switching playing boss every other leg then when things gets hairy who is really in command. For you sci-fi nuts, Capt Kirk might let Spock drive the ship while he's asleep or on the can but at no time is he the Capt, he's merely driving the ship. This is not left seat envy or ego playing this is how flying as a crew is done, and I've done it that way for over 8,000 hours. If it aint broke I aint fixing it.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

sure.

both may be completely able to deal with an emergency, but only ONE should be calling the shots. ONE flying the plane, ONE running the checklist...you get it.

I have done the 2 captain thing...and the question always was..."did you do a walkaround? no...did you?" Its easier just to agree on who is PIC and who is SIC.

I gotta agree, the system is in place for a reason!

 

[FracCapt]

What I find (most of the time) is that most captains are against the co-captain thing because of their precious ego. I know this question is in regards to Part 135, but as far as 91 ops. go, I don't see the issue. If both pilots are qualified to fly as captain, why can't the left seat guy be the PIC and the right seat guy be SIC?

First of all, being "qualified to fly as Captain" means you have a type rating. Being "qualified to fly as Captain" and actually being a Captain are two totally different things. That is why, in some of the situations, there is always one specific PIC regardless of where he/she sits. The rest of the time...well, that's how the company chose to do it. Maybe the pilots had some influence on that, maybe not.

I, personally, don't give a rats a$$ which seat I sit in. I fly for a fractional, so regardless of seat, I am designated PIC(unless flying with another PIC who is senior). Does it matter to me which seat I sit in? Nope. He11, I'll sit in the right seat all the time if they pay me as a PIC. All the questions from ramp rats, customs, most pax, etc., are aimed at the guy in the left seat. I'd rather avoid those! If they pair two of us PIC's up together, we fight over who is designated as PIC by the company. "You're the PIC." "No way dude, YOU'RE the PIC!" "Not me, I'm not gonna do it - YOU DO IT!" You get the point.

BTW, I would be interested to know how the frac operators do it. They seam to have quite a few 4 stripers flying together.

As Dep stated, we all wear 4 stripes at FO. Honestly, I'd like to do away with the stripes....and the ties...and the pilot shirts...and go with Polo shirts. No stripes, no ego, no problem. Trust me, there are plenty of FO's out there that have an ego issue regarding how many stripes they wear - just as there are plenty of Captains out there that want to make it absolutely clear to everybody they encounter who is the Captain. SHOW ME THE MONEY! That's all I care about. If you want me to be SIC but pay me as a PIC.....all the better.

..I WAS in high school in the 90's - put it that way....

And all this time I figured you were an old fart.....guess we're about the same age, then. Dam, I still feel old. That's why I like flying with the grey hairs....they make me feel like some young punk kid again.

 

[FracCapt]

I think we tend to get so hung up on what seat we sit in that we forget that our goal is to get pax to their destination safely. I just cant understand why anyone would be against this. I mean I understand the concept of paying your dues, but once you have some time in the aircraft, cut the guy loose. After all, you're not sending him out with an inexperienced SIC. He'll be with another captain. Someone give me a good reason why this will not work.

Look man, I'm not trying to be an a$$bag here or anything....but 95% of the time, it's only the "SIC's" that have this hang up as to who is PIC and who sits in which seat. When you are talking about experienced Captains, most don't give a rats a$$ who sits where, or who is called what. Call me whatever you want - my decisions are still gonna be the same. If things start to go south, I'm gonna handle it. By the same token, if I'm flying and the other guy thinks things are going south...I expect him to do what is necessary. I make it clear to the SIC's I fly with(and they are considered SIC's due to our type of operation, not because they are inferior) that if they don't speak up or do something when they feel there is a problem, there will be he11 to pay.

I know you don't believe me, but your opinion will change over time.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

dam...do I really come across as an old fart?

 

[FracCapt]

Some of the fleets here swap legs and others only let the SIC's fly empty legs from the left. The reason for that is because whoever the knuckle head that wrote our SOP's put in there that an SIC shall not occupy the left seat on live legs. That however can be waived by the program manager and some choose to do so.

Yes, that "rule" has been in our SOP's since I started here 5 years ago. I don't agree with the fact that the PM wan waive it without putting it in writing on official company documents. I don't care which seat I sit in - but I will not let SIC's occupy the left seat during a live leg until that is approved IN WRITING in company SOP's. If they change it, then slap my a$$ and call me your b!tch....I don't care...and I'll sit wherever you want me to..

 

[FracCapt]

dam...do I really come across as an old fart?

Well....I have to admit....until your changed to your current avatar, I assumed you were a grey hair...but after you changed it to the current one, I started to think you might be OK...

 

[SCT]

My department has 2 airplanes and 6 pilots. All pilots are cross trained and PIC in both a/c. A pilot is listed as capt. (no matter seniority or hrs) on each trip. We switch seats every leg when practical, after the pilot feels comfortable flying w/ paxs.
As stated before though, if your name is on the f-plan and the pf busts an altitude.....you are in trouble w/ the FAA. After awhile, most pilots pefer to fly SIC on a trip......less paperwork and hassles!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

now I gotta go for the younger look...

 

[FracCapt]

now I gotta go for the younger look...

Ok...I gotta say....grey hair trying to fit in with the college kids...