Seat swapping????

[aroundtheblock]

I have to agree with G-200. Gear guy I think you miss the point. There is a big difference between pilot flying/pilot not flying and PIC/SIC. There have been many occurances in my flying career I had more experience both total time and time in the airplane but was SIC on a flight. Some departments assign it by seniority, others by chief pilot assignment. But the fact remains you need a designated leader. Gear Guy, the majors, regionals, military, and charter all do it this way for a reason. There has to be a chain of command, and if you are switching playing boss every other leg then when things gets hairy who is really in command. For you sci-fi nuts, Capt Kirk might let Spock drive the ship while he's asleep or on the can but at no time is he the Capt, he's merely driving the ship. This is not left seat envy or ego playing this is how flying as a crew is done, and I've done it that way for over 8,000 hours. If it aint broke I aint fixing it.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

sure.

both may be completely able to deal with an emergency, but only ONE should be calling the shots. ONE flying the plane, ONE running the checklist...you get it.

I have done the 2 captain thing...and the question always was..."did you do a walkaround? no...did you?" Its easier just to agree on who is PIC and who is SIC.

I gotta agree, the system is in place for a reason!

 

[FracCapt]

What I find (most of the time) is that most captains are against the co-captain thing because of their precious ego. I know this question is in regards to Part 135, but as far as 91 ops. go, I don't see the issue. If both pilots are qualified to fly as captain, why can't the left seat guy be the PIC and the right seat guy be SIC?

First of all, being "qualified to fly as Captain" means you have a type rating. Being "qualified to fly as Captain" and actually being a Captain are two totally different things. That is why, in some of the situations, there is always one specific PIC regardless of where he/she sits. The rest of the time...well, that's how the company chose to do it. Maybe the pilots had some influence on that, maybe not.

I, personally, don't give a rats a$$ which seat I sit in. I fly for a fractional, so regardless of seat, I am designated PIC(unless flying with another PIC who is senior). Does it matter to me which seat I sit in? Nope. He11, I'll sit in the right seat all the time if they pay me as a PIC. All the questions from ramp rats, customs, most pax, etc., are aimed at the guy in the left seat. I'd rather avoid those! If they pair two of us PIC's up together, we fight over who is designated as PIC by the company. "You're the PIC." "No way dude, YOU'RE the PIC!" "Not me, I'm not gonna do it - YOU DO IT!" You get the point.

BTW, I would be interested to know how the frac operators do it. They seam to have quite a few 4 stripers flying together.

As Dep stated, we all wear 4 stripes at FO. Honestly, I'd like to do away with the stripes....and the ties...and the pilot shirts...and go with Polo shirts. No stripes, no ego, no problem. Trust me, there are plenty of FO's out there that have an ego issue regarding how many stripes they wear - just as there are plenty of Captains out there that want to make it absolutely clear to everybody they encounter who is the Captain. SHOW ME THE MONEY! That's all I care about. If you want me to be SIC but pay me as a PIC.....all the better.

..I WAS in high school in the 90's - put it that way....

And all this time I figured you were an old fart.....guess we're about the same age, then. Dam, I still feel old. That's why I like flying with the grey hairs....they make me feel like some young punk kid again.

 

[FracCapt]

I think we tend to get so hung up on what seat we sit in that we forget that our goal is to get pax to their destination safely. I just cant understand why anyone would be against this. I mean I understand the concept of paying your dues, but once you have some time in the aircraft, cut the guy loose. After all, you're not sending him out with an inexperienced SIC. He'll be with another captain. Someone give me a good reason why this will not work.

Look man, I'm not trying to be an a$$bag here or anything....but 95% of the time, it's only the "SIC's" that have this hang up as to who is PIC and who sits in which seat. When you are talking about experienced Captains, most don't give a rats a$$ who sits where, or who is called what. Call me whatever you want - my decisions are still gonna be the same. If things start to go south, I'm gonna handle it. By the same token, if I'm flying and the other guy thinks things are going south...I expect him to do what is necessary. I make it clear to the SIC's I fly with(and they are considered SIC's due to our type of operation, not because they are inferior) that if they don't speak up or do something when they feel there is a problem, there will be he11 to pay.

I know you don't believe me, but your opinion will change over time.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

dam...do I really come across as an old fart?

 

[FracCapt]

Some of the fleets here swap legs and others only let the SIC's fly empty legs from the left. The reason for that is because whoever the knuckle head that wrote our SOP's put in there that an SIC shall not occupy the left seat on live legs. That however can be waived by the program manager and some choose to do so.

Yes, that "rule" has been in our SOP's since I started here 5 years ago. I don't agree with the fact that the PM wan waive it without putting it in writing on official company documents. I don't care which seat I sit in - but I will not let SIC's occupy the left seat during a live leg until that is approved IN WRITING in company SOP's. If they change it, then slap my a$$ and call me your b!tch....I don't care...and I'll sit wherever you want me to..

 

[FracCapt]

dam...do I really come across as an old fart?

Well....I have to admit....until your changed to your current avatar, I assumed you were a grey hair...but after you changed it to the current one, I started to think you might be OK...

 

[SCT]

My department has 2 airplanes and 6 pilots. All pilots are cross trained and PIC in both a/c. A pilot is listed as capt. (no matter seniority or hrs) on each trip. We switch seats every leg when practical, after the pilot feels comfortable flying w/ paxs.
As stated before though, if your name is on the f-plan and the pf busts an altitude.....you are in trouble w/ the FAA. After awhile, most pilots pefer to fly SIC on a trip......less paperwork and hassles!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

now I gotta go for the younger look...

 

[FracCapt]

now I gotta go for the younger look...

Ok...I gotta say....grey hair trying to fit in with the college kids...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I wish I could fit in....4-5 beers these days and Im asleep....heck, that was breakfast not TOO many years ago (well..)

 

[FracCapt]

Wait a sec....you said you were in HS in the '90's....that puts us within 4 years of the same age, MAX. I'm just getting started at 4-5 beers! Hmmm...maybe that means I'm trying to act young....no way...I'm....oh, nevermind...I'm going to bed...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

nope...it means you aint got KIDS.





yeah, I can still put on a show every once in a while....but hangovers last days now instead of hours....

lame.

 

[gear_guy]

Like I posted earlier, "it's impossible to convince people to change." I may be wrong on this one, but I get so tired of the old "we've been doin it this way for x years....why change it." Or "If it aint broke don't fix it." I guess you guys have no problem with a guy with 8k hours getting papers, ice, and coffee for 10 years just because of seniority. Of course you would if it were you. But as long as it's somebody else, who cares! If you have any career drive whatsoever you're not gonna sit stagnant for that long. It aint gonna happen these days, because people know there are better opportunities out there. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. But I know quite a few corporate operators who are operating successfully like I have explained. I just wish they would speak up and throw me a life preserver.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

dam. Im confused....

 

[FracCapt]

I guess you guys have no problem with a guy with 8k hours getting papers, ice, and coffee for 10 years just because of seniority. Of course you would if it were you. But as long as it's somebody else, who cares!

Like I said before, all I ever hear this argument from is the low timers such as yourself. Those that DO have 8k hours don't really care whether or not they have to get the papers, ice, and coffee. Where I work, there are two ATP rated and typed guys flying each airplane. One is desinated as PIC, the other is designated for SIC. Those that are not PIC qualified with the company(even though they are typed) are FO's. They are DESIGNATED as First Officers by the company. Either they get the cabin ready for flight, or they get the cockpit ready - I don't really care which....just as long as we, between the two of us, get everything done, I don't care who does what. Sometimes I do a full preflight - sometimes the FO does. Sometimes I set up everything up front and the FO takes care of the back - sometimes it's the other way around. I've flown with guys that make the same arguments as you do...and they always seem to be the low timers....and trust me, it gets really old, really fast listening to it. Check your ego at the door.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

flying as SIC half the time sure is not career stagnation.
Heck, its nice to not have all the responsibilities sometimes, right?
I have not met too many "8000hr+" pilots who mind setting up the cockpit, getting coffee (er..no F/A?)...or whatever it takes to GET THE JOB DONE.

Corp flying has a lot to do with sharing the work..heck if Im all set on my end and a F/A is running around like crazy (not due to her/his own fault) I ask..."Can I help ya?"....If the SIC of the day is swamped, I dont go in back and read the paper...I help him/her in the cockpit...and thankfully this how 90% of the folks I work with operate - this is also why airline guys sometimes have a hard time adapting to corp flying...("Im a Super Stud Pilot, I dont ask for Ice or Coffee, thats YOUR job...talk to my union..")

Are you being used strictly as a SIC? are you being paid as an SIC and you think you should be a PIC and they are holding you back?

If so..well ya...move on to a better job!

 

[gear_guy]

This ego has been checked at the door. If I had an ego I would'nt be at my current place of employment. I have no problem getting ice, coffee, and papers. In fact, I realize it is part of corporate flying. I really enjoy what I do. All I was trying to say is when that is all you do, it gets old. Some day the guy riding right seat will have to upgrade. And when all you remember how to do is get coffee (b/c that's been your responsibility for the last 8 years) it's dificult to get in the zone of being PIC/Capt. Please don't take what I am saying as ego. We have a real problem with ego in this industry, and it disgusts me. I will never be one of those guys. I have learned plenty on how not to be from some of the people I have flown with over the years. I don't have captain-itis either. I have had opportunities to be a captain elsewhere and turned them down. And exactly how much total time does a person need to have an opinion? I think it is wrong for you to render me as opinionless because of my total time. I don't feel the need to explain my qualifications because they don't have anything to do with the issues. Let's discuss the issues without getting personal.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I think its where you work...maybe you fly with 1 or 2 guys who have territorial problems? afraid of young guys taking thier spots?

The only places I have encountered this are 135 bottom feeder gigs where old guys have nowhere else to go and are paranoid of their turf...

just be sure its not YOU. Have you given them any reason NOT to trust you as PIC? 2500tt is not a ton of time either..but whatever...

hope it works out.

 

[gear_guy]

G200-

After hearing your side of the coin, I really do think it's where I work. I am glad to know that things are'nt that way where you work. It sounds like a real team atmosphere. I am glad to know that things get better. I don't want to jump from job to job so I will probably put up with it for longer than most. Our turnover rate is very high. Most guys leave before there contract is even up. The fact that we even have a contract should say something about our environment. Anyways I think we beat this one to death.