seat fillers

[U-I pilot]

I also posted this in the 135 room:

Are there any 135 operators or other corporate type operations that need a body to fill the second seat up front? I know that planes requiring two pilots can substitute Autopilot usually but if they dont, this could be a good way for low-time (only piston experienced) pilots to get a feel for a more complex aircraft and possibly build time.
Since times are so tough now I would just like to see what all options out there are to build time when I come out if CFI jobs are drying up!

Thanks- Bryan

 

[hopeful]

If an aircraft requires two pilots without the autopilot, then the company needs to hire an F/O to fly in these cases. Do not get suckered into "filling the seat." No one should fly for free. If the airplane can't fly without an F/O then the company needs to pay the cash to have an appropriate crew.

 

[mike]

Safety

The FO is there for safety, and he/she should be trained.

The insurance companies are setting the minimum pilot times now. Not the total time but the required pilot experience in aircraft type, make and model.

Check with your local freight companies. I logged a fair amount of night multi engine time flying dead legs in the middle of the night.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Are there any 135 operators or other corporate type operations that need a body to fill the second seat up front?

Bryan,

You paid a lot of money to learn how to fly.
You put a lot of effort into learning to fly.
You are a safe, competent pilot responsible for many millions of dollars of equipment and liability.

You are more than a warm body.

I personally think you can get paid for this hard work and responsibility!

 

[English]

Bryan,

There are companies that operate single pilot airplanes such as the Citationjet and the King Air and use the autopilot in lieu of a second in command provision in thier op specs. Meaning, all that is required for part 135 in a Citationjet is one pilot, a PIC. No SIC is required. Therefore, the entire staff of pilots could conceivably consist of PIC qualified pilots only.

There could be occasions when a client requests a second pilot. Perhaps it is for appearances sake for the passengers, or perhaps the perception that the flight will be safer with two pilots (I agree that safety can be enhanced when two QUALIFIED pilots are up front, but not with a seat warmer). So, some companies will give local CFIs the opportunity to fly along with the PIC and work the radios as a passenger that sits in the right seat. On empty legs, the PIC might let the passenger operating the radios fly and give some informal instruction on how the fly the aircraft. When an opening comes up for a pilot down the road, perhaps the passenger operating the radios who also happens to be a licensed pilot gets a crack at the job.

Now, these companies might also put a flight attendant, a line guy, an accountant, the pilot's spouse, etc., in the right seat if a second pilot is requested and a pilot cannot be found. All that is legally needed is a fully qualified PIC.

So in answer to your question, yes, there are companies out there who do what you are asking about. But please be careful my friend. Not only will companies take advantage of you if you let them, but there is great potential to get violated if you don't know what you are doing, and if you don't know the ops specs and your local POI's interpretations of how the company can and cannot operate single pilot. In the Citationjet, for example, some FSDOs do not allow SICs PERIOD, due to the lack of the CVR. With more than six passenger seats, if acting as a crew, the CJ is requierd to have a CVR. We don't. We took out our belted potty seats, which brought us down to six passenger seats (including the right pilot seat), but our FSDO still won't let us operate with two crew members. We can take along a passenger in the right seat and that's it.

However, other FSDOs do allow SICs in the CJ. I don't know anything about the King Air so maybe someone else can chime in.

 

[jamhamms]

Seat Fillers/ Riding along

I posted this reply in the Cargo area a couple of months ago, so if you read it already, I apologize because it's long. Anyway, here it is:

I can't help you in OKC, but those programs do exist. I fly DC3s and 402s in the southeast , hauling freight for a living. We have a semi-formal ride-along program that has been in place and working well for years. I'll just give you a real-life example to show you how it works (I just got back this morning from flying this trip). My pager went off Wednesday at 1830, I was at the airport at 1850. I called a ride-along from our list. He's a typical guy - CFI/CFII, with a multiengine rating. About 600 hours total time, but we have a few ride-alongs with less. He's been on trips with me before, so I know he can hold a heading and altitude.

He went out to help with the DC3 preflight, and here's the trip:

Home airport-VPC (empty, part 91) 1.9 hours, night. ride-along flew as SIC and logs the time.

VPC-CRW (freight on board, part 135). 2.5, night. Real FO flies, ride-along in the jumpseat, but watching like a hawk. Cleared Customs.

CRW-CYKF (freight still on board, part 135). 3.8, night. 1.0 actual, 1 ILS to minimums. Real FO still in the seat, R-A still in the jumpseat. All the Customs crap again on the Canadian side. 5 gallons of oil in the right engine, in the windy cold. R-A helps FO.

CYKF-CRW (empty, part 91). R-A in the seat, FO dozing in the jumpseat. takeoff into instant IFR, a little bit of rime ice for the first thousand feet or so, dealing with Canadian controllers and slightly different phraseology. 4.0 total, 1.8 night, 1.5 actual. He watched the sunrise, the FO slept through it. Again. Cleared Customs inbound. Decent landing by R-A. Only two bounces

CRW-Home airport (empty, part 91). R-A still wanted to fly, FO still wanted to sleep. 4.0 total, should have been 3.2, but the ATL Center radar outage had everyone on non-radar routings, complete with reporting points. Took the scenic route home, but great experience for the R-A. I just wanted to get home. We shut down at 1030 on Thursday.

All things considered, not a bad deal for the R-A.

DC3SIC logged:
9.9 total
9.9 multi
9.9 tailwheel
9.9 X-C
5.7 night
1.5 actual
1 landing.

Considering the cheapest DC3 dual I have seen is $880/hr, Our 600 hour ride-along got some pretty valuable time.


Keep looking dude - someone will let you ride along. Did I mention that we only hire new FOs from within the ride-along ranks? Dedication, and being a little crazy helps grease the wheels in the freight world.

 

[U-I pilot]

ride-along

I guess this was more of what i was getting at: Building time (especially if its multi), little or no money, but building experience for a real job with that company or one flying the same equipment. I know it would be easy for an employer to exploit this type of person however if a company has a ride-along program that they do hiring from, it might be worth it to someone who otherwise has to get a job to build the same hours and then go apply to a company who you might be a stranger to.

-Thanks for all the responses

 

[Gulfstream 200]

OK....
Here is my take on it...

If you come into my office with a resume and ask if you can "ride along" (WTF is this??!) I would thank you for stopping by and throw your resume in the garbage...

why??...because you dont think your services are worth being compensated for, and I dont want to fly with a pilot like that.

"ride along" programs?? Sounds like the workings of scumbag freight and Gulfstream type operations...If they cant afford to pay a pilot at least SOMETHING, how do you think their maintainence is?? better yet, maybe they charge you a few bucks to sit in that mighty turboprop....

You dont want to do this..

If all there is right now is CFI'ng...do it...at least they pay you for your services.

 

[starvingcfi]

ok. what exactly is wrong with riding along on a single pilot airplane and building some multi time? i'm in this situation right now. i'm a full-time cfi with 25...count'em...25 hours of multi. i can't teach in my school's twin b/c i don't have enough multi (there's another catch-22), so i don't have my mei. i can't afford to buy multi time b/c, like i said, i'm a full-time cfi. what the hell is wrong with riding along and logging some time (and most importantly, experience) for free? i don't see what the problem is. aviation is one big f*cking catch-22 and it's starting to irritate me. i'm paying my dues. i'm doing what i can, but there's only so much i can do. if i get a f*cking free ride, i'm taking it. someone please explain this to me.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

maybe I was just very lucky to get paid for all my positions.

I wouldn't get too worked up about it....you have to do what you have to do, right?

Heck, I dont care if people PFT, fly for free, whatever you think it takes to get yourself where you want to be...I dont necessarily think these folks are taking away from other guys (most dont want those crap jobs anyways!) all I was trying to point out is that this guy/gal shouldn't be so quick to pimp himself out for free.....all thats going to attract is BAD JOBS.

 

[U-I pilot]

aint pimpin'

I am not trying to pimp my self out there however it would be easy for a high time pilot like yourself to see it this way I imagine. I am just throwing the ball out in the court to dig up some opinions which now i have: this is good! I am still just getting my ratings and gotta start thinking about what direction I may wanna go when i get the chance. It aint so easy to get a Multi job of some kind yet CFIing coming out of school with 300TT. If some employer is not gonna pay me to sit in that seat you seem to think I am selling myself short when I get these hours. By the same token, he could be flying these legs without me and I would still be getting no money....I like it better with the time building.

my still learning $.02

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Sounds like you should go for it!

As far as "high time".. 5000hrs is not that many believe me...
I had 170 hours Total Time not TOO many years ago myself, and went through the same "gotta get multi time" delemia...all us civilian pilots have..

You will look back on it and laugh, rest assured. Until then just do yourself a favor and build that time SAFELY and Legally!!!

Best of Luck!

 

[Chunk]

Gulfstream,

I don't believe in CFI'in for free. I don't believe in PFT. I don't believe in whoring yourself out. All because you are TAKING THE POSITION a more qualified pilot would normally occupy....only getting the seat because you're saving the operator $$ the salary of a proper FO.

That's not what the original poster is asking for. There is *nothing* immoral or wrong about sitting in a seat that normally would be empty. You aren't taking away anyone's job AND you're learning and logging at the same time. These are good things to do!

Please do not forget how tough it is to make it in aviation, even in the best of times.

Respectfully,

Chunk

 

[jdru25]

If you want multi time the secret is to network yourself at your local airport. Get to know some of the local pilots and hopefully you will meet one with a twin. Be polite and outgoing with everyone you meet at the airport.........they just may be able to help you.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

There is *nothing* immoral or wrong about sitting in a seat that normally would be empty.

never said there was!, just suggested there are BETTER ways to go....(like getting PAID!) HECK, I dont even think PFT'ing is "immoral" like many here...whatever gets you by. I never thought a PFT'er took any job I would have wanted, so I dont care!

All is was suggesting is to set your standards high, as that will put you into better jobs - regardless of what level you are currently at.

Please do not forget how tough it is to make it in aviation, even in the best of times.

PLEASE dont ever tell ME how hard it is to "make it"!!

I think we all know.....right?

 

[passion4flying]

I remember when I started. I beg, borrowed and stealed every hour I could. Some of it was for free. But it got me the hours I needed for better jobs down the road. This is an extremely hard industry to break into. It is not immoral to sit in the right seat and not get paid for it. You have to do anything and everything (legally) to get those hours and get your career going. Good luck. I remember those days and they sucked. Good luck again and God's speed.

Passion

 

[puddlejumper]

Ride Along Issues

Something that would have to be addressed in the case of a required crewmember ride-along would be the training required by the FARs for SICs. If the ride-along is not an employee of the company, that person is considered a passenger. The person acting as SIC needs to have received training and have completed the 3 takeoffs and landings without pax. That could become an insurance and legal issue if it is done with a non-employee.

The DC-3 operation from the post above would have to be approved for passengers in order for the ride-along to be jumpseating, right?

If there is someway for a potential ride-along to get the required training to be the SIC on 91 flights, it may just work out. The ride-along could probably get that accomplished with some maintenance or ferry flights, I suppose.

-PJ

 

[jamhamms]

Ride Along Issues Addressed

Thanks very much to DOC at ProPilot.com for this response to a similar question several months ago. It addresses the legalities for SIC in single-pilot multi-engine cargo airplanes, as well as pressurized and non-pressurized multi-engine two-crew cargo airplanes. This is copied verbatim from the message board at ProPilot.com.

This should adequately address who can fly what, and when, and when they can log the time. As an aside, I flew as a ride-along before I was hired as a DC3 SIC. I had previously flown JS32 SIC for a now-defunct charter operator, and had even gone back to work in my degreed (non-aviation) profession when the opportunity to fly again presented itself. It worked out great for me, but that's not to say it would work out this well for anyone else. I'm flying, getting paid (not much), and love going to work. I ain't complaining.



**********************************************
Here's the scenario:

Lear 25 with a typed and 135-current PIC, and a current and 135-qualified SIC leaves PHX empty, enroute to Flagstaff. Also aboard is a CMEL pilot that is not 135 qualified, but otherwise current. At Flagstaff they load the freight and head for ABQ. After dumping the freight in ABQ, the deadhead back home to PHX. Can the non-135 CMEL guy legally fly in the right seat on the empty legs? I've heard that the empty legs might be operated as part 91, and he can log the time.

If it won't work with the Lear, will it work with an airplane that doesn't need a high-altitude endorsement, like a Beech 18 or a DC3?


DOC's Response:

"The commercial pilot, AMEL, may occupy the right (or left) seat on non-revenue legs, as these legs are not operated under FAR 135, since no passengers or cargo are on board which are being transported for compensation or hire. They are considered to be ferry (or repositioning) flights and are excluded from FAR 135 regulation by FAR 119.1(e)(3).

Since the LR-25 type certificate requires two pilots, he may act as SIC and log SIC time for the entire flight as provided in FAR 61.51(f). He may do so whether the purpose of the flight is to establish SIC currency; or if he is already qualified under FAR 61.55 as an SIC, the purpose is to get him some experience in the type.

If he holds an LR-JET type rating, then he may log PIC time, even if he is not current to act as PIC, under the provisions of FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i), which merely requires that he be the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is RATED, with no requirement to be CURRENT. But, he may not ACT as PIC unless he is current to do so.

As for the DC-3 and the BE-18:
Many versions of the DC-3 do not require more than one pilot under the type certificate, but do require a second in command since it is a large airplane not subject to SFAR 41 (see FAR 91.531(a)(1)), so the pilot could log SIC time on the FAR 91 legs. If he was type-rated for the DC-3, he could log PIC time if he was the sole manipulator of the controls, as described for the LR-JET above.

The Beech 18 is not a large aircraft and its type certificate data sheet is silent as to the number of required pilots. If the AFM requires two pilots, then the regulations under which the flight is conducted require compliance with the AFM limitations (see FAR 91.9) and so the SIC could log SIC time. If no regulations (FAR) nor the AFM require more than one pilot, then the "ride along" pilot could not log SIC time as he does not meet any of the FAR 61.51(f) provisions to log SIC time.

But since the Beech 18 does not require a type rating, the pilot could log PIC time when he is the sole manipulator of the controls since he is rated for AMEL aircraft.

FYI with respect to the Lear 25: The issue of the high altitude endorsement is moot since the endorsement is only required for the pilot who is ACTING as the PIC of the flight.

I hope this helps!

Regards

Doc

*****************************************

Long, but worth the read.

James

 

[Steve]

C-208 question

Can someone log SIC time in a Cessna 208 Caravan if it is a privately owned Part 91 airplane? Is this legal? Under what conditions is this legal?

 

[cvsfly]

No. And if you come to me with "well I'm a safety pilot and the other pilot is flying under the hood for instrument training" I'd laugh you out the interview door. I know lots of guys are out there (and always have been) that say I just want to ride along "and log some flight time". Well 99% of these situations are just logbook padding. If you can't get it legally, might as well just sit at the airport and record N numbers as they taxi by and put time in your logbook. Those who are truely there just for the experience take it for that and forget the logbook. All my hours where PIC (or solo and dual given) prior to training, qualified and authorized SIC in 135 operations.

 

[FLpilot]

this guy/gal shouldn't be so quick to pimp himself out for free.....all thats going to attract is BAD JOBS

No truer words were ever spoken. Forget all the moral high minded crap the fact of the matter is Gulfstream 200 is right, blind desperation will only serve to land you somewhere you don't want to be. I went chasing after a job more experienced friends warned me to stay away from but I didn't listen cause I wanted to get jet time at all cost. Well it took me two months before I came to my senses and realized the job wasn't worth a possible violation (or worse.) The moral of the story is if I hadn't been so desperate I never would have gotten invloved with an outfit like that to begin with. I haven't flown in over a year but I don't regret the decision for a second. This is not an anti PFT sermon or anything like that just that a warning not to be so ambitous that you become a target for one of the many sleezy indivuals/outfits there are in aviation. Be careful.

 

[U-I pilot]

If the first situation comes up (an airplane requiring two pilots) and you will go thrugh training and take the checkride for the 8410...make sure you get paid.

I figured this much but thanks for all the input. As I have said earlier, I just wanna see what options are out there. Its also good to know all this info BEFORE getting into one of these situations where I might be getting screwed. Lots of great things to keep for future reference.
Thanks

 

[jamhamms]

Seat Fillers followup

If the company is operating an aircraft, that requires two pilots, under 135, than the SIC needs to be trained in the aircrft, and have a current 8410.

That is true, but only on the legs that are actually carrying freight. The empty legs (ferry/positioning) are FAR 91 legs. See my post above for the actual wording of the relevant regulations.

I agree that a pilot should be paid for his/her work. Does that mean there is no value in legally participating in the operation of a large multiengine aircraft, in the actual operating environment (ATL, CLT, CYKF, ORF, IND, MKE, IAD, DTW, ORD, LGA, etc)? For instace, the cheapest DC3 dual time I have seen advertised is around $800/HR, and that's just for a few takeoffs and landings. maybe I'm all wet, but I see some tangible value on doing the ride-along thing, especially if it leads to a job. A couple of hours of dual in the same plane is big $$, and that would be conducted in a very limited (day/vfr/local) environment.

 

[LJDRVR]

I'm not going to get involved with the: is it morally right?" portion of this debate. I DO however, feel compelled to respond concerning the legal and safety implications of some of the scenarios being suggested here. First the legal aspect. In the scenarios described above, the ride-along guy or gal manipulates the controls during the empty legs and logs SIC time.

This person has no training in the AC (Required)

Unless the certificate holder is billing the freight customer ONLY for the occupied legs. then the whole trip is considered for hire flying. If y'all think I'm wrong on this, please contact you FSDO and your insurance company. This whole "the airplane's coming home empty! You guys are part 91! You don't need to comply with :_____(wx, duty times, etc)" Is the biggest BS hoax perpetrated by less than informed operators in the industry! Jamhamms, if your passenger ground loops the -3 during rollout (and I know you would catch it first man ) your carrier's insurance company will walk away from the claim if they discover what happened. If the customer was quoted a trip that says: ABC-DEF-GHI-ABC, then it doesn't matter if the freight was only on the DEF-GHI leg. The whole trip is for hire. The operator is certainly not giving away two out of the three legs. The customer paid for them, it's for-hire.

Check your operations manual. I'm betting that it has a portion that says other than crew, the only people allowed on your freight aircraft are company employees, FAA ops inspectors, government courriers for classified material, and animal handlers. I could be wrong.

And now the Safety issues. Someone mentioned in their thread an example of a Learjet ride-along. I'm a bit of a hypocrite to say this, as I once bamboozled a Learjet flight or two back in my CFI days. (I got paid. Had to bug the the guy for 6 months, but I got paid.) While I certainly thought at the time it was a grand idea, Now I'm able to look back on it with the perspective of over 2000 hours of Lear time. The facts are this:

The Captain/Operator was a sc_mbag

If this guy had keeled over, I would probably not be writing this now.

The jet was not properly maintained. We flew three legs with a mechanical condition that I would walk away from now. As an eager young CFI, I just didn't know the difference. When I think about it now I shudder. Any Learjet Captain willing to put an un-trained person in the right seat is a miscreant. (Bring on the flames)

U-1 pilot. I feel for you dude. I remember how difficult it was to get those first multi-engine hours. If you are going to warm somebodies right seat, make sure that you recieve training first. At a minimum, some ground instruction and three bounces with you at the controls. Best of luck my friend. It seems insurmountable now, but you'll make it.

Warm Regards,

 

[hopeful]

If you Non Rev to an airport to pick up pax, then yes you are 91, but will still need the 8410 in order to be able to fly back with the pax, or frieght.

Thats not necessarily true. It depends on how your fed interperets the regs. Some view a reposition leg for a revenue flight as part 135. Most reposition legs of this type are paid for by the customer, thus making them a part 135 leg.

 

[hopeful]

If you Non Rev to an airport to pick up pax, then yes you are 91, but will still need the 8410 in order to be able to fly back with the pax, or frieght.

Not true.

If the passengers are paying for the reposition, which they nearly always do, then it is a 135 leg. Even if the aircraft is empty, it is still a paid revenue flight, thus making it 135.

 

[AAPvtPilot]

Okay with all that said.......... are there any operators in California that will let you "fill the seat"?

 

[mike1mc]

The jobs are out there, you just need to dig DEEP to fidn them. Before graduating college I sent out many a resume to every company in the northeast. I got a reply back from one operator looking for a "copilot" on a BE58. I got the job, did the training and took the 135 SIC checkride and now fly as SIC (with an 8410) even though our Ops Specs don't require an SIC (if PIC has a 135.105 check). The catch is the insurance company is now requiring 2 pilots regardless of the operation. This may be the case with other operators, but I don't know of any offhand. I'd keep looking around. Just because an SIC isn't required by FARs, that doesn't mean that companies don't need them (especially for small twins). Also keep in mind I don't have a lot of hours (by any stretch of the imagination) and I'm not a CFI. I work in Operations when not flying (which has been extremely valuable). Good luck and I hope something turns up for you!

 

[Sunnfun]

Just because an SIC isn't required by FARs, that doesn't mean that companies don't need them (especially for small twins).

Sure. But do you log the time as SIC? If yes, what part of 61.57(f) gives you the right to do so?

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

Cheers,
Sun'n Fun

 

[mike1mc]

I do log the time as SIC, but it falls under Part 135 since it is a charter operation. I do not log SIC for the flights that are Part 91 (repositioning/owner), but I'm usually flying these legs and log them as PIC.