seat fillers

[U-I pilot]

I also posted this in the 135 room:

Are there any 135 operators or other corporate type operations that need a body to fill the second seat up front? I know that planes requiring two pilots can substitute Autopilot usually but if they dont, this could be a good way for low-time (only piston experienced) pilots to get a feel for a more complex aircraft and possibly build time.
Since times are so tough now I would just like to see what all options out there are to build time when I come out if CFI jobs are drying up!

Thanks- Bryan

 

[hopeful]

If an aircraft requires two pilots without the autopilot, then the company needs to hire an F/O to fly in these cases. Do not get suckered into "filling the seat." No one should fly for free. If the airplane can't fly without an F/O then the company needs to pay the cash to have an appropriate crew.

 

[mike]

Safety

The FO is there for safety, and he/she should be trained.

The insurance companies are setting the minimum pilot times now. Not the total time but the required pilot experience in aircraft type, make and model.

Check with your local freight companies. I logged a fair amount of night multi engine time flying dead legs in the middle of the night.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Are there any 135 operators or other corporate type operations that need a body to fill the second seat up front?

Bryan,

You paid a lot of money to learn how to fly.
You put a lot of effort into learning to fly.
You are a safe, competent pilot responsible for many millions of dollars of equipment and liability.

You are more than a warm body.

I personally think you can get paid for this hard work and responsibility!

 

[English]

Bryan,

There are companies that operate single pilot airplanes such as the Citationjet and the King Air and use the autopilot in lieu of a second in command provision in thier op specs. Meaning, all that is required for part 135 in a Citationjet is one pilot, a PIC. No SIC is required. Therefore, the entire staff of pilots could conceivably consist of PIC qualified pilots only.

There could be occasions when a client requests a second pilot. Perhaps it is for appearances sake for the passengers, or perhaps the perception that the flight will be safer with two pilots (I agree that safety can be enhanced when two QUALIFIED pilots are up front, but not with a seat warmer). So, some companies will give local CFIs the opportunity to fly along with the PIC and work the radios as a passenger that sits in the right seat. On empty legs, the PIC might let the passenger operating the radios fly and give some informal instruction on how the fly the aircraft. When an opening comes up for a pilot down the road, perhaps the passenger operating the radios who also happens to be a licensed pilot gets a crack at the job.

Now, these companies might also put a flight attendant, a line guy, an accountant, the pilot's spouse, etc., in the right seat if a second pilot is requested and a pilot cannot be found. All that is legally needed is a fully qualified PIC.

So in answer to your question, yes, there are companies out there who do what you are asking about. But please be careful my friend. Not only will companies take advantage of you if you let them, but there is great potential to get violated if you don't know what you are doing, and if you don't know the ops specs and your local POI's interpretations of how the company can and cannot operate single pilot. In the Citationjet, for example, some FSDOs do not allow SICs PERIOD, due to the lack of the CVR. With more than six passenger seats, if acting as a crew, the CJ is requierd to have a CVR. We don't. We took out our belted potty seats, which brought us down to six passenger seats (including the right pilot seat), but our FSDO still won't let us operate with two crew members. We can take along a passenger in the right seat and that's it.

However, other FSDOs do allow SICs in the CJ. I don't know anything about the King Air so maybe someone else can chime in.

 

[jamhamms]

Seat Fillers/ Riding along

I posted this reply in the Cargo area a couple of months ago, so if you read it already, I apologize because it's long. Anyway, here it is:

I can't help you in OKC, but those programs do exist. I fly DC3s and 402s in the southeast , hauling freight for a living. We have a semi-formal ride-along program that has been in place and working well for years. I'll just give you a real-life example to show you how it works (I just got back this morning from flying this trip). My pager went off Wednesday at 1830, I was at the airport at 1850. I called a ride-along from our list. He's a typical guy - CFI/CFII, with a multiengine rating. About 600 hours total time, but we have a few ride-alongs with less. He's been on trips with me before, so I know he can hold a heading and altitude.

He went out to help with the DC3 preflight, and here's the trip:

Home airport-VPC (empty, part 91) 1.9 hours, night. ride-along flew as SIC and logs the time.

VPC-CRW (freight on board, part 135). 2.5, night. Real FO flies, ride-along in the jumpseat, but watching like a hawk. Cleared Customs.

CRW-CYKF (freight still on board, part 135). 3.8, night. 1.0 actual, 1 ILS to minimums. Real FO still in the seat, R-A still in the jumpseat. All the Customs crap again on the Canadian side. 5 gallons of oil in the right engine, in the windy cold. R-A helps FO.

CYKF-CRW (empty, part 91). R-A in the seat, FO dozing in the jumpseat. takeoff into instant IFR, a little bit of rime ice for the first thousand feet or so, dealing with Canadian controllers and slightly different phraseology. 4.0 total, 1.8 night, 1.5 actual. He watched the sunrise, the FO slept through it. Again. Cleared Customs inbound. Decent landing by R-A. Only two bounces

CRW-Home airport (empty, part 91). R-A still wanted to fly, FO still wanted to sleep. 4.0 total, should have been 3.2, but the ATL Center radar outage had everyone on non-radar routings, complete with reporting points. Took the scenic route home, but great experience for the R-A. I just wanted to get home. We shut down at 1030 on Thursday.

All things considered, not a bad deal for the R-A.

DC3SIC logged:
9.9 total
9.9 multi
9.9 tailwheel
9.9 X-C
5.7 night
1.5 actual
1 landing.

Considering the cheapest DC3 dual I have seen is $880/hr, Our 600 hour ride-along got some pretty valuable time.


Keep looking dude - someone will let you ride along. Did I mention that we only hire new FOs from within the ride-along ranks? Dedication, and being a little crazy helps grease the wheels in the freight world.

 

[U-I pilot]

ride-along

I guess this was more of what i was getting at: Building time (especially if its multi), little or no money, but building experience for a real job with that company or one flying the same equipment. I know it would be easy for an employer to exploit this type of person however if a company has a ride-along program that they do hiring from, it might be worth it to someone who otherwise has to get a job to build the same hours and then go apply to a company who you might be a stranger to.

-Thanks for all the responses

 

[Gulfstream 200]

OK....
Here is my take on it...

If you come into my office with a resume and ask if you can "ride along" (WTF is this??!) I would thank you for stopping by and throw your resume in the garbage...

why??...because you dont think your services are worth being compensated for, and I dont want to fly with a pilot like that.

"ride along" programs?? Sounds like the workings of scumbag freight and Gulfstream type operations...If they cant afford to pay a pilot at least SOMETHING, how do you think their maintainence is?? better yet, maybe they charge you a few bucks to sit in that mighty turboprop....

You dont want to do this..

If all there is right now is CFI'ng...do it...at least they pay you for your services.

 

[starvingcfi]

ok. what exactly is wrong with riding along on a single pilot airplane and building some multi time? i'm in this situation right now. i'm a full-time cfi with 25...count'em...25 hours of multi. i can't teach in my school's twin b/c i don't have enough multi (there's another catch-22), so i don't have my mei. i can't afford to buy multi time b/c, like i said, i'm a full-time cfi. what the hell is wrong with riding along and logging some time (and most importantly, experience) for free? i don't see what the problem is. aviation is one big f*cking catch-22 and it's starting to irritate me. i'm paying my dues. i'm doing what i can, but there's only so much i can do. if i get a f*cking free ride, i'm taking it. someone please explain this to me.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

maybe I was just very lucky to get paid for all my positions.

I wouldn't get too worked up about it....you have to do what you have to do, right?

Heck, I dont care if people PFT, fly for free, whatever you think it takes to get yourself where you want to be...I dont necessarily think these folks are taking away from other guys (most dont want those crap jobs anyways!) all I was trying to point out is that this guy/gal shouldn't be so quick to pimp himself out for free.....all thats going to attract is BAD JOBS.