Scope Defeating Freedom Airlines

[fatburger]

Hey FlyinBrian,

You bring up some very good points in your last post. You also bring them from your perspective. From your profile your flying a Saab with 1300 hours. Your probably in your first "airline job" with a commuter. And as of right now, your enduring probably your first furlough. My point is that once you get a few more years in this industry I believe that you will have some differing opinions about your union, scope clauses and the true value of your experience. Just my opinion though.

fatburger.........................a furloughed brother

 

[earlthesquirrel]

Hey Boeingman;

Your only point from the previous post you left was not that I had a chip on my shoulder. It was that CAL pilots, due to their contract, deserved to flow back to COEX. You stated that when times are good COEX flowed to CAL and now due to the contract it is time to flow back. Your previous post seemed to indicate that you couldn't care less about the COEX folks that were displaced. I think that it proves my point entirely about what Major airline pilots think of those that earn less money and fly smaller equipment.

I enjoy my job very much and have no desire to fly for an airline of any size. I fly 600 hrs per year and am home every night. I can retire early have good bennies and have decided that watching my 2 small boys grow up is more important than the size of airplane I fly. If you think this is some kind of excuse for not doing what you are doing you are very wrong. By the way how many wives have you had?? I hope only 1 but given the nature of the airline business you are probably on 2 if not 3. How much time have you missed with your kids?? So far I have been there for EVERYTHING. Some day when you are gasping for your last breath that big shiney airplane won't be there to hold your hand.

No sit down and carefully think out a response. Come on you can do it :]

 

[fatburger]

Hey Earl,

Please don't speak for all of us major airline pilots. I have one question for you: Did you think that those furloughed at COEX knew about the flow through agreement? If they did, then they knew there was a chance that it could flow the other way too.

Your attitude will change, and I bet you'll take a job at a major in a heartbeat when things get good again. Kids get expensive as I am soon to find out!!

Fatburger............furloughed and on wife #1 with Kid #1 due in 7
days.

 

[Boeingman]

Hey Boeingman;

Your only point from the previous post you left was not that I had a chip on my shoulder. It was that CAL pilots, due to their contract, deserved to flow back to COEX. You stated that when times are good COEX flowed to CAL and now due to the contract it is time to flow back. Your previous post seemed to indicate that you couldn't care less about the COEX folks that were displaced. I think that it proves my point entirely about what Major airline pilots think of those that earn less money and fly smaller equipment.

I enjoy my job very much and have no desire to fly for an airline of any size. I fly 600 hrs per year and am home every night. I can retire early have good bennies and have decided that watching my 2 small boys grow up is more important than the size of airplane I fly. If you think this is some kind of excuse for not doing what you are doing you are very wrong. By the way how many wives have you had?? I hope only 1 but given the nature of the airline business you are probably on 2 if not 3. How much time have you missed with your kids?? So far I have been there for EVERYTHING. Some day when you are gasping for your last breath that big shiney airplane won't be there to hold your hand.

No sit down and carefully think out a response. Come on you can do it :]

You have not proved squat. I only care about the contract and it's proper enforcement. If that puts CO EX on the street per the FTA that is the breaks. If you could stop talking out of your ass for just a second you'd realize that some CAL guys are not eligible for the flowback either and are on the street. But you ran your mouth off without any knowledge of what the facts are and you got busted on it.

Yes they deserved to flow back to Express because of the FTA. You're also forgetting these CAL guys had their seniority dilluted by Express pilots coming over with them as new hires. It is a 2 way street Earl. There are ups and downs with every issue. During the hiring the common theme for people wanting to work for Express was the opportunity for a set flow to mainline. So I don't buy and don't try the song and dance they didn't know. The FTA was very clear.

I think it is comical you continue to ignore the importance of a collective bargaining agreement and it's proper application with the FTA at CAL. However, I must consider the source of someone who makes a statement of "not wanting to work for any airline of any size". You do not have a clue about contracts and CBA's that is quite clear.

Your continued whining about this perceived lack of respect about pilots who fly smaller equipment for lower pay must be from the root of some deep seated emotional hangup about major airline pilots. Those that are happy with your situation do not seem to have the need to belittle and berate pilots flying larger equipment for more money. Ususally, It is because they cannot get hired on with a major. Your attitude drips with a thinly veiled jealousy that becomes clearer with each word.


I don't really remember asking, nor could I care about you, your family your lifestyle etc. etc. Why you choose to bring it up and ask about mine I don't know. It must make you feel better to soothe that pain of not being able to cut it and improve your lifestyle, career or financial situation. But since you probed....


I can assure you my friend, financially I could buy and sell you in a heartbeat. My CAL salary is nothing compared to my other income from a business I own. Your schoolyard chiding of not flying my "shiny airplane" to me, is a joke. I am also still on my first wife.

I have spent a lot of time away from my family defending our country to give morons like you the ability to have, among other things, the freedom of speech. What effort, contribution or sacrifices have you given Earl? Or are you the type to just rely on others to protect your way of life? Given the above, I'll be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed to have some little piss ant pass judgement on my choice of career and use a lame value of staying away from my family. My family lives a very good life for my efforts.

Sure I don't see every little function at school, but I can tell you they will go to the best colleges and will not worry about finances through and for their education. Nor will I. Everything is a trade off Earl. Everything has a price.

As far as your airplane size mantra. I graduated #2 in my UPT class. I had a choice of airplanes and I passed on the C-5 for the tiny little F-4 Phantom. So you can take your size theory and stuff that as well. At CAL, I can hold 777 CA but I don't. I don't need the money nor the "size" fixation you have doesn't matter to me here. Strike 2 partner.

Your squirrel handle is quite appropriate Earl.

 

[publisher]

Points

Wile a number of good points have been made here are a few bottom liners:

1.. there will be hardly any regionals anymore that are not flying regional jets, therefore if mainline pilots take over, there are no regionals anymore.

2.. JO has a contract with USAirways that effects his ability to do business with other airlines and on his own. This is an impossible situation. America West and USAirways are the weakest major carriers. He is in the position of being handcuffed by carriers that may not even be here in several years.

3.. In effect, regional pilots are being screwed by all parties. They are being impacted by Agreements that did not contemplate the current situation. Their growth is being negatively effected by scope agreements that cater to major pilots to the negative of regional pilots.

4. So far, ALPA is doing a better job of helping Southwest and AirTran take over mainline markets than they could do on their own. In absense of a regional, they become the low cost provider.

5. There is a reason for regionals. It is not to employ pilots. It is to provide market establishment and maintenance at a low cost, let me repeat, at a low cost.

6. This flying does not belong to anyone. the consumer does not belong to anyone.

7. Management and the consumer have the right to spend their money the way they want. They both have the right to vote with their feet.

 

[Humty72]

??

By the way how many wives have you had?? I hope only 1 but given the nature of the airline business you are probably on 2 if not 3.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[nimtz]

You guys that see Freedom Air as a great opportunity have your heads where the sun don't shine. We will be f*cked as rj pilots if guys like Orenstein can hoar out his jets to supplement mainline flying. We are not talking about little jets here, we are talking about 84 seats! The Fokker 100 holds 88 in American's configuation. Here are the approx. salaries for the a 9 year capt and second year fo:
Capt: $158/hour
FO: $61/hour

Now call me crazy, but I bet American bought the airplane anticipating to make a profit in a good market. Know what do you suppose Orenstein is going to pay? You'll be lucky to see 100 bucks an hour for a captain. Now why should you fly make 58 bucks less to fly an airplane w/four less seats? With a non-union outfit like Freedom operating rj pilots will stand no chance of getting our wages inline with mainline eventhough the planes we fly are producing the same amount of revenue. In short you are the same thing as cheap immigrant labor!

Listen to the older guys on this board. Frank Lorenzo used this exact form of garbage when he started NY Air, which lead him down the road to ruining alot of lives. This whole deal may seem good in the short term, but you will be shooting yourselves in the foot in the long term.

 

[prodigal]

Brotherhood???

This industry sounds more like a pond full of piranas who have run out of fresh meat and have begun feeding on themselves.
Coming from the business world I simply cannot believe that there are educated adults amoung us here who just don't grasp the realities of a market economy. Earl, Brian and a couple of others have it right. THE MARKET WILL ULTIMATELY DETERMINE EVERYTHING, not any union, nor any contract. Face it, due to economic realities regionals are becoming something more than a dues-paying stepping stone to the majors. The old Soviet Union tried to manage their economy. Just doesn't work.
A million years ago dinosaurs ruled the food chain. Then drastic changes in the environment caused that to change. Major airlines may be the dinosaurs of our economy. I don't think they'll become extinct but must certainly learn to adapt to the new realities and become a different animal in order to survive. Survival of the fittest. Right now the regionals seem to be the best suited for flourishing. Artificial constraints will not in the long run defeat the market. JO and Freedom are proving that, and all the gnashing of the teeth of every mainline pilot and all the unions in the world cannot change that. Every other industry has had to adapt to new realities. Why should the airlines be any different? Is it right or wrong? Irrevelant. It's just reality.
Oh, and another immutable reality . . . human nature. We're all out for our own selfish interests. Screw the rest. . . I've got mine.
There's your brotherhood.

 

[skydiverdriver]

SOME people are looking out for only thier own interests, as that is human nature, but some others think of everyone. The best way to stop this C scale madness is to use the policy our union has in place to remedy the situation. It's called the merger and fragmentation policy. It was recently changed to say that "regionals" should not be counted as airlines, but luckily, our lawsuit was filed before that quick change was made. The rjdc is the only way out of this, and the only group fighting for your rights. No matter what you may hear from people who hate them, they are going to make things better for EVERY pilot.

 

[Braniff]

You guys are going to have to realize that the same things that attracted you to aviation are those same things that were won by organized labor within the industry.

If you for a moment think that Freedom Air is going to pay anywhere near scale or be anything more than flying bus drivers, you're kidding yourself.

They're going to fill the captain seats, out of seniority, with captains that don't have the ability or want to move on to another airline.

Then they're going to fill the FO seats with pay-for-training new pilots.

If they get captains that don't want to or don't have the ability to move on to other regionals and/or majors, they're paying far lower attrition costs.

It's all about the bottom line, baby!

When they hire pay-for-training FO's, they're virtually cost-free to bring them up to speed and they're going to pay them rock bottom wages because they CAN.

I've flown for a non-union carrier before and IT IS NOT GOOD. If the company busts the FAA's duty regulations, who are you going to call? The FAA? They really don't get involved with stuff like that.

If the company says, "Fly the (unairworthy) aircraft or get fired" who are you going to turn to? The FAA? Pshaw, right!

What happens if they decide to cut your pay or move your domicile over night and require you to move ALL of your stuff to the new city on the drop of a hat?

These are all things that I saw when I flew for a non-union regional. It's NOT pretty.

Frank Lorenzo, welcome back.

Braniff