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Scope clause changes could be biggest impact on airlines since deregulation

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GogglesPisano

Pawn, in game of life
Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Posts
3,939
From ATWONLINE:

US regional growth could hinge on major airline labor negotiations
Thursday March 11, 2010
The current round of pilot negotiations at US major network airlines "will be the most important since deregulation" and could determine the future growth path for the regional airline segment, according to William Swelbar, a research engineer at MIT's International Center for Air Transportation.

Speaking yesterday at the FAA Forecast Conference in Washington, Swelbar said that if unions representing mainline pilots agree to relax restrictions on the size and number of aircraft that may be operated by regionals in codeshare with majors, the pilots will become "irrelevant in the US domestic market 25 years from now." Currently, scope clause agreements typically limit the size of regional jets that may be operated under codeshare to 76 seats or fewer. But if, as some suggest, mainline pilots agree to raise the limit to up to 125 seats, regional airlines simply will assume most domestic flying.

Regionals already operate 53% of all US domestic departures and are the majority service providers at many major airports, Regional Airline Assn. President Roger Cohen noted. For example, they operate 52.3% of departures at Chicago O'Hare, 56.4% of Houston Intercontinental departures and 52.1% of New York LaGuardia departures.

Much of this transition occurred during the last major round of scope clause relaxation before and during airline bankruptcy restructurings. According to Swelbar, regional ASMs increased 178% between 2000 and 2009 while mainline domestic ASMs fell 27%. But much of this growth represented a bubble as US majors raced to dump capacity following 9/11 without shedding market presence rather than taking a realistic look at the revenue potential of the domestic market: "Does Jacksonville, N.C., really need nine flights per day when five or six would do?" he asked.

While they may be poised to resume growth after a brief hiatus, regionals face their own challenges. As independent analyst George Hamlin noted at the conference, regional airline profits are not as high as they once were owing to increasing pressure from major partners to accept lower fees under capacity purchase agreements. Furthermore, majors are expected to continue to dump 50-seat RJs from their regional partner fleets. Swelbar said 486 50-seat RJs are under expiring capacity purchase agreements through 2016 and could leave the fleet. "We are in a state of flux," Hamlin said.


by Perry Flint
 
Wasn't this all brought about by the resistance of mainline pilots back in the 90's to bring baby jets and their crews into the mainline seniority at baby jet wages?
 
Plenty of responsibility to spread around on the the RJ issue. I mostly put it in the lap of ALPA and other unions, not standing strong and drawing a line in the sand years ago has made all professional pilots pay the price. Kinda of like embedded taxes, it's in your face but may not be directly felt.
 
Wasn't this all brought about by the resistance of mainline pilots back in the 90's to bring baby jets and their crews into the mainline seniority at baby jet wages?

Exactly.

Plenty of responsibility to spread around on the the RJ issue. I mostly put it in the lap of ALPA and other unions, not standing strong and drawing a line in the sand years ago has made all professional pilots pay the price.

The responsibility lies with the pilots at the major carriers who didn't want to fly turbo props anymore or baby jets...they did draw a line in the sand and want it erased now, oddly enough when the primary "RJ" was a turboprop mainline guys wanted nothing to do with it, when it was 50 seat jets they wanted nothing to do with it...until the 50 seat jet was flying more flights for a major than the major itself, 70 seats they want it back now.

How many seats did a F-27 have? DC-9-10? -20? -30?
 
Well.....somebody's let the cat out of the bag! I'm usually the eternal optimist, but with what looks like more than 50% of domestic departures being serviced by RJ's, seems to me that this industry is headed down a looong downhill slide. If that's true, I'm glad I don't have 20 or 30 years to go to retirement...
 
The Important Thing...

Right now, who really cares whose fault the past scope relaxations have been, those arguments could go on ad nauseum and I'm sure they will.

The really important thing now is that there are NO MORE scope give aways, especially now that everyone can see what results from it.

As a regional pilot who doesn't want to be a regional pilot for the rest of his carrier (gee, I wonder where I work...), I'm begging all mainline pilots not to give another inch, no matter what your managements offer in return. Scope is the golden goose and if you let management cook it so you can have one good meal, most of us will be eating sh!t sandwiches in the not too distant future.

ALPA Mainline, are you listening???
 
As a SWA pilot, if it has Southwest on the tail I want our own flying it regardless if it is a Turboprop or RJ Jet. We can work out the pay later.

Rich
 
But if it benefits the seniors

Right now, who really cares whose fault the past scope relaxations have been, those arguments could go on ad nauseum and I'm sure they will.

The really important thing now is that there are NO MORE scope give aways, especially now that everyone can see what results from it.

As a regional pilot who doesn't want to be a regional pilot for the rest of his carrier (gee, I wonder where I work...), I'm begging all mainline pilots not to give another inch, no matter what your managements offer in return. Scope is the golden goose and if you let management cook it so you can have one good meal, most of us will be eating sh!t sandwiches in the not too distant future.

ALPA Mainline, are you listening???
But if it benefits the seniors, they will throw the juniors under the bus. Majority rules. Adam Smith said it best in 1780, "In every economic transaction, everyone looks out for their own best interest" Management knows this
 
As a SWA pilot, if it has Southwest on the tail I want our own flying it regardless if it is a Turboprop or RJ Jet. We can work out the pay later.

Rich

Right on!

No hurry up and start hiring again! lol

I want to drink that cool aid too. :beer:
 
Right now, who really cares whose fault the past scope relaxations have been, those arguments could go on ad nauseum and I'm sure they will.

The really important thing now is that there are NO MORE scope give aways, especially now that everyone can see what results from it.

As a regional pilot who doesn't want to be a regional pilot for the rest of his carrier (gee, I wonder where I work...), I'm begging all mainline pilots not to give another inch, no matter what your managements offer in return. Scope is the golden goose and if you let management cook it so you can have one good meal, most of us will be eating sh!t sandwiches in the not too distant future.

ALPA Mainline, are you listening???

Here's a guy who "gets it"....

Rest assured, I think ALL demographics of the seniority list at my airline sees what loose scope is doing to their careers.
 
Hopefully, all pilot groups sees the writing on the wall.

In the famous words of Captain Picard:"The line must be drawn here!"
 
As a SWA pilot, if it has Southwest on the tail I want our own flying it regardless if it is a Turboprop or RJ Jet. We can work out the pay later.

Rich

NO! We'll work out the pay and then send our most senior pilots to fly the turboprops:) Pay Matters!!!!!
 
get it back! get it all back. hell get even the Peoria to Ohare flight back.

Even those at the regionals will thank you b/c then they will actually have mainline jobs to go to.

Course...you never should have given it away in the first place. Its the holier-than-thou senior ********************s in the 90s that didn't want to fly small jets who allowed it to be given away, completely ass-@#$!-ing this industry. And it's those same tools that are now flying past 60 just b/c they're too bored a home.

"Greatest Generation my a$$"

More like greediest generation.
 
Here's a guy who "gets it"....

Rest assured, I think ALL demographics of the seniority list at my airline sees what loose scope is doing to their careers.

That's the key problem. The top 20-30 percent will see relaxing scope as a way to protect them and their pensions. That won't change because of some new found 'eithic' at the network carriers.
 
Here is a problem I have seen in the past at my own airline. Why do pilots insist on electing senior pilots to Chairmanships, MEC's, LEC's and Negotiating committees? They NEVER have the majority's interest in mind.

That is a fundamental flaw in the way we run our unions. Vote in new fresh (not top 20%) leaders.

And never give away any scope again. Period.
 
This is freaking brilliant. All the RJ pilots on this thread, including myself, are against any more scope relief. Do you hear that mainline pilots? I do not want to fly your airplane! This is the way that I have always felt. Yet, we get blamed as if we are here begging the mainline to let us fly some more planes if we promise to do it real cheap.

If your airline gets 100 seaters, I hope you fly them, or else it is really going to screw things up.

Ok, quick metaphor:

Years back, a guy in a moment of selfish-minded, instant gratification, sleeps with a girl he thinks is sort of second class trash. He doesn't really think she is "hot" enough to be with long term, but she is a sweet hard working girl and she is available now. Turns out she gets pregnant. Fast forward a few decades, and now her son is a man. He has grown just as smart and strong as his father. But, the father can't stand the sight of his bastard son, and in a twisted way blames the son for ruining his life.

(I am thinking about turning this in to a novel and calling it "The Scarlet Widget")
 
ok, quick metaphor:

Years back, a guy in a moment of selfish-minded, instant gratification, sleeps with a girl he thinks is sort of second class trash. He doesn't really think she is "hot" enough to be with long term, but she is a sweet hard working girl and she is available now. Turns out she gets pregnant. Fast forward a few decades, and now her son is a man. He has grown just as smart and strong as his father. But, the father can't stand the sight of his bastard son, and in a twisted way blames the son for ruining his life.

(i am thinking about turning this in to a novel and calling it "the scarlet widget")

wtf??

that sounds like you got some deep seated "michael jackson touched my pepe when i was 8" sh!t. You need to see Dr. Phil.
 
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It was a joke. Legacy's started this rj mess and now they want to blame us. The scarlet widget is in reference to the Delta logo...never mind, you apparently didn't get it. I would be willing to say this joke fell flat but I won't judge it by your lone response.

I guess I should have made a metaphor out of "Michael Jackson" and "pee pee" so you understand.
 
Would the regionals strike to make career wages?

Right now, who really cares whose fault the past scope relaxations have been, those arguments could go on ad nauseum and I'm sure they will.

The really important thing now is that there are NO MORE scope give aways, especially now that everyone can see what results from it.

As a regional pilot who doesn't want to be a regional pilot for the rest of his carrier (gee, I wonder where I work...), I'm begging all mainline pilots not to give another inch, no matter what your managements offer in return. Scope is the golden goose and if you let management cook it so you can have one good meal, most of us will be eating sh!t sandwiches in the not too distant future.

ALPA Mainline, are you listening???
Hopefully this is just a cycle. Many regional pilots fly for "opportunity cost" - A means to end. But if the regional is the end; I believe pilots would do everything in their power to improve the QOL, to include striking and risking the loss of a mediocre job. However, comma, if there is an ample supply of new pilots willing to fly for mediocre wages; the point becomes mute and a subsequent domestic flying career is in peril.
 
Well said Penguin. I might add that most "Major" pilots take the job on opportunity cost also. They tolerate the gouging first year pay in hope that they'll reach year two.
 
Here is the real deal:

If mainline guys are going to fly 90 seaters and maybe less, management will simply reply with the statement that vendors will do it for X amount of dollars.

So if mainline takes on the 90seaters will you be surprised if it is at regional pay rates? What about benefits? Those cost less too at the vendors.....

Mainline should fly 90 seaters.... all seaters actually. But the cold reality is the 90 seat or less jets might be seen as a B scale at mainline. So the effort is two tiered... get the jets and then during the next contract, get the rates up. As stated, a cold reality. But the fact is mainline made the mistake of giving 50 seat, etc.. flying away and now they are going to have to pay to get them back.


The other consideration the regional pilots have to contend with, is being outsourced themselves. As the article read, in 25 years regionals might be doing all of the domestic flying... but that doesn't mean it would be ASA, Skywest and ARW. These vendors might be long gone as the Colgans, TSA and Mesa's are the top tier while companies not even in business are doing the 'low' end lift..... outsourcing them....
 
get it back! get it all back. hell get even the Peoria to Ohare flight back.

Even those at the regionals will thank you b/c then they will actually have mainline jobs to go to.

Course...you never should have given it away in the first place. Its the holier-than-thou senior ********************s in the 90s that didn't want to fly small jets who allowed it to be given away, completely ass-@#$!-ing this industry. And it's those same tools that are now flying past 60 just b/c they're too bored a home.

"Greatest Generation my a$$"

More like greediest generation.

I second this motion.

I hope to be proven wrong.

Pensions
Social Security
Medicare
Middle class lifestlye

These things dont even exist among the new generation of pilots.

Vote to leave the career better than you found it, please.
 
So what good is a "mainline" job if you are flying the same airplane for less money and a worse schedule because you gave up your longevity and seniority?

If you bring all the RJs over to mainline, at regional rates, that will become the majority of domestic flying. Becareful what you wish for.
 
Yes but with RJ's at mainline, you maintain seniority as you move up the seat and equipment chain. You would not have to leave and start over again. A RJ Capt. at 70K-80K is not far off of mainline F/O seat. Is someone saying when you can hold an A-330 Int'l you will still be at RJ wages?
 
So what good is a "mainline" job if you are flying the same airplane for less money and a worse schedule because you gave up your longevity and seniority?

If you bring all the RJs over to mainline, at regional rates, that will become the majority of domestic flying. Becareful what you wish for.

We can see that the current trend of out sourcing doesn't work (for the mainline guys) so I say put them on the mainline property even if it is at regional wages.

It brings more options (a bigger fleet). For example if your currently at a mainline and they add RJ (any size) its grow and you become senior. You have the option to stay on your current Boeing/AB equip or be an RJ CA. The pay would be comparable as YIP said above between RJ CA and Boeing/AB FO.

If there are furloughs then you move down to the RJ. Its better then being on the street or some convoluted J4J program (some have been there done that). It may be a pay cut but at least you'll be at YOUR company and accruing longevity. Further if your the guy that just can't see him/herself in an RJ then take furlough (when you can't hold the Boeing/AB anymore) and let a junior guy work.

Note in the case of bringing RJ's onto a mainline you would need to be careful to protect the size of your current Boeing/AB fleet so management couldn't just replace everything with RJ's. For example your have 200 737/757 and your airline brings in 30 E170's. The size of the 737/757 fleet needs to be protected (especially the 737) as to not be reduced and replaced by the E170. This is one point I think the mainlines were scared of back when the RJ first came on the scene.
 
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Yes but with RJ's at mainline, you maintain seniority as you move up the seat and equipment chain. You would not have to leave and start over again. A RJ Capt. at 70K-80K is not far off of mainline F/O seat.
Who are you and what have you done with pilotyip?


Is someone saying when you can hold an A-330 Int'l you will still be at RJ wages?

No!
 
get it back! get it all back. hell get even the Peoria to Ohare flight back.

Even those at the regionals will thank you b/c then they will actually have mainline jobs to go to.

Course...you never should have given it away in the first place. Its the holier-than-thou senior ********************s in the 90s that didn't want to fly small jets who allowed it to be given away, completely ass-@#$!-ing this industry. And it's those same tools that are now flying past 60 just b/c they're too bored a home.

"Greatest Generation my a$$"

More like greediest generation.

The greatest generation had nothing to do with this debacle. The self serving Baby boomers are the generation you speak of.
 

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