Scope clause changes could be biggest impact on airlines since deregulation

[Poahi]

Here's a guy who "gets it"....

Rest assured, I think ALL demographics of the seniority list at my airline sees what loose scope is doing to their careers.

That's the key problem. The top 20-30 percent will see relaxing scope as a way to protect them and their pensions. That won't change because of some new found 'eithic' at the network carriers.

 

[Smarta$$]

Here is a problem I have seen in the past at my own airline. Why do pilots insist on electing senior pilots to Chairmanships, MEC's, LEC's and Negotiating committees? They NEVER have the majority's interest in mind.

That is a fundamental flaw in the way we run our unions. Vote in new fresh (not top 20%) leaders.

And never give away any scope again. Period.

 

[agonyairfo]

This is freaking brilliant. All the RJ pilots on this thread, including myself, are against any more scope relief. Do you hear that mainline pilots? I do not want to fly your airplane! This is the way that I have always felt. Yet, we get blamed as if we are here begging the mainline to let us fly some more planes if we promise to do it real cheap.

If your airline gets 100 seaters, I hope you fly them, or else it is really going to screw things up.

Ok, quick metaphor:

Years back, a guy in a moment of selfish-minded, instant gratification, sleeps with a girl he thinks is sort of second class trash. He doesn't really think she is "hot" enough to be with long term, but she is a sweet hard working girl and she is available now. Turns out she gets pregnant. Fast forward a few decades, and now her son is a man. He has grown just as smart and strong as his father. But, the father can't stand the sight of his bastard son, and in a twisted way blames the son for ruining his life.

(I am thinking about turning this in to a novel and calling it "The Scarlet Widget")

 

[LearLove]

ok, quick metaphor:

Years back, a guy in a moment of selfish-minded, instant gratification, sleeps with a girl he thinks is sort of second class trash. He doesn't really think she is "hot" enough to be with long term, but she is a sweet hard working girl and she is available now. Turns out she gets pregnant. Fast forward a few decades, and now her son is a man. He has grown just as smart and strong as his father. But, the father can't stand the sight of his bastard son, and in a twisted way blames the son for ruining his life.

(i am thinking about turning this in to a novel and calling it "the scarlet widget")

wtf??

that sounds like you got some deep seated "michael jackson touched my pepe when i was 8" sh!t. You need to see Dr. Phil.

 

[agonyairfo]

It was a joke. Legacy's started this rj mess and now they want to blame us. The scarlet widget is in reference to the Delta logo...never mind, you apparently didn't get it. I would be willing to say this joke fell flat but I won't judge it by your lone response.

I guess I should have made a metaphor out of "Michael Jackson" and "pee pee" so you understand.

 

[Penguin46]

Would the regionals strike to make career wages?

Right now, who really cares whose fault the past scope relaxations have been, those arguments could go on ad nauseum and I'm sure they will.

The really important thing now is that there are NO MORE scope give aways, especially now that everyone can see what results from it.

As a regional pilot who doesn't want to be a regional pilot for the rest of his carrier (gee, I wonder where I work...), I'm begging all mainline pilots not to give another inch, no matter what your managements offer in return. Scope is the golden goose and if you let management cook it so you can have one good meal, most of us will be eating sh!t sandwiches in the not too distant future.

ALPA Mainline, are you listening???

Hopefully this is just a cycle. Many regional pilots fly for "opportunity cost" - A means to end. But if the regional is the end; I believe pilots would do everything in their power to improve the QOL, to include striking and risking the loss of a mediocre job. However, comma, if there is an ample supply of new pilots willing to fly for mediocre wages; the point becomes mute and a subsequent domestic flying career is in peril.

 

[agonyairfo]

Well said Penguin. I might add that most "Major" pilots take the job on opportunity cost also. They tolerate the gouging first year pay in hope that they'll reach year two.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here is the real deal:

If mainline guys are going to fly 90 seaters and maybe less, management will simply reply with the statement that vendors will do it for X amount of dollars.

So if mainline takes on the 90seaters will you be surprised if it is at regional pay rates? What about benefits? Those cost less too at the vendors.....

Mainline should fly 90 seaters.... all seaters actually. But the cold reality is the 90 seat or less jets might be seen as a B scale at mainline. So the effort is two tiered... get the jets and then during the next contract, get the rates up. As stated, a cold reality. But the fact is mainline made the mistake of giving 50 seat, etc.. flying away and now they are going to have to pay to get them back.


The other consideration the regional pilots have to contend with, is being outsourced themselves. As the article read, in 25 years regionals might be doing all of the domestic flying... but that doesn't mean it would be ASA, Skywest and ARW. These vendors might be long gone as the Colgans, TSA and Mesa's are the top tier while companies not even in business are doing the 'low' end lift..... outsourcing them....

 

[Jar Jar]

get it back! get it all back. hell get even the Peoria to Ohare flight back.

Even those at the regionals will thank you b/c then they will actually have mainline jobs to go to.

Course...you never should have given it away in the first place. Its the holier-than-thou senior ********************s in the 90s that didn't want to fly small jets who allowed it to be given away, completely ass-@#$!-ing this industry. And it's those same tools that are now flying past 60 just b/c they're too bored a home.

"Greatest Generation my a$$"

More like greediest generation.

I second this motion.

I hope to be proven wrong.

Pensions
Social Security
Medicare
Middle class lifestlye

These things dont even exist among the new generation of pilots.

Vote to leave the career better than you found it, please.

 

[JoeMerchant]

So what good is a "mainline" job if you are flying the same airplane for less money and a worse schedule because you gave up your longevity and seniority?

If you bring all the RJs over to mainline, at regional rates, that will become the majority of domestic flying. Becareful what you wish for.

 

[pilotyip]

Yes but with RJ's at mainline, you maintain seniority as you move up the seat and equipment chain. You would not have to leave and start over again. A RJ Capt. at 70K-80K is not far off of mainline F/O seat. Is someone saying when you can hold an A-330 Int'l you will still be at RJ wages?

 

[LearLove]

So what good is a "mainline" job if you are flying the same airplane for less money and a worse schedule because you gave up your longevity and seniority?

If you bring all the RJs over to mainline, at regional rates, that will become the majority of domestic flying. Becareful what you wish for.

We can see that the current trend of out sourcing doesn't work (for the mainline guys) so I say put them on the mainline property even if it is at regional wages.

It brings more options (a bigger fleet). For example if your currently at a mainline and they add RJ (any size) its grow and you become senior. You have the option to stay on your current Boeing/AB equip or be an RJ CA. The pay would be comparable as YIP said above between RJ CA and Boeing/AB FO.

If there are furloughs then you move down to the RJ. Its better then being on the street or some convoluted J4J program (some have been there done that). It may be a pay cut but at least you'll be at YOUR company and accruing longevity. Further if your the guy that just can't see him/herself in an RJ then take furlough (when you can't hold the Boeing/AB anymore) and let a junior guy work.

Note in the case of bringing RJ's onto a mainline you would need to be careful to protect the size of your current Boeing/AB fleet so management couldn't just replace everything with RJ's. For example your have 200 737/757 and your airline brings in 30 E170's. The size of the 737/757 fleet needs to be protected (especially the 737) as to not be reduced and replaced by the E170. This is one point I think the mainlines were scared of back when the RJ first came on the scene.

 

[LearLove]

Yes but with RJ's at mainline, you maintain seniority as you move up the seat and equipment chain. You would not have to leave and start over again. A RJ Capt. at 70K-80K is not far off of mainline F/O seat.

Agreed

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Yes but with RJ's at mainline, you maintain seniority as you move up the seat and equipment chain. You would not have to leave and start over again. A RJ Capt. at 70K-80K is not far off of mainline F/O seat.

Who are you and what have you done with pilotyip?

Is someone saying when you can hold an A-330 Int'l you will still be at RJ wages?

No!

 

[Blade Runner]

get it back! get it all back. hell get even the Peoria to Ohare flight back.

Even those at the regionals will thank you b/c then they will actually have mainline jobs to go to.

Course...you never should have given it away in the first place. Its the holier-than-thou senior ********************s in the 90s that didn't want to fly small jets who allowed it to be given away, completely ass-@#$!-ing this industry. And it's those same tools that are now flying past 60 just b/c they're too bored a home.

"Greatest Generation my a$$"

More like greediest generation.

The greatest generation had nothing to do with this debacle. The self serving Baby boomers are the generation you speak of.