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Scenic vs. ACC vs. Great Lakes

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QuasarZ

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2005
Posts
328
Just curious on what everyone thinks. Just looking to see what would be the better way to go. My goal is to eventually be the 3rd gen. at NW. (not gonna get into a debate on why them, bash me if you want) Once I am done with school I will have 500/250 or 600/350, depending on how much I fly. All are hiring with around that time. I do know of some pros and cons of each

Scenic is Pt 121 turbine time, but mainly VFR to a handfull of airports, pay is ok.

ACC is PT 135 turbine time, with lots of night and ifr, pay is pretty decent.

Great lakes is lots of flying, quick upgrade, lousy pay.

Opinions?
 
As a Laker, I'll have to disagree with FF. Which school are you graduating from, and when's it going to be? GLA upgrades are pretty damn fast right now - I'm looking to move up after about a year with the company and not much more than ATP minimum flight time. QOL isn't always great on the jets - just ask the guys at Pinnacle or TSA.

If you can handle the poverty-level pay, I'd say go for Lakes. They'll interview you in a heartbeat with those times, and there's nowhere in the country you'll get your 1000 turbine PIC faster. Screw QOL - that's what the NW job is for.
 
Go to Trans States or Mesa or some other jet operator that hires with low times, finnish your training, get a wee bit of experience, and then shop yourself around to a descent regional where your won't mind spending a few years. Good luck wherever this crazy pilot thing takes you (we all need quite a bit of luck in this twisted profession).
 
thepotato232 said:
As a Laker, I'll have to disagree with FF. Which school are you graduating from, and when's it going to be? GLA upgrades are pretty dang fast right now - I'm looking to move up after about a year with the company and not much more than ATP minimum flight time. QOL isn't always great on the jets - just ask the guys at Pinnacle or TSA.

If you can handle the poverty-level pay, I'd say go for Lakes. They'll interview you in a heartbeat with those times, and there's nowhere in the country you'll get your 1000 turbine PIC faster. Screw QOL - that's what the NW job is for.
Click to expand...

I have 2 years left at St. Cloud State up here in MN. I might get out half a semester early so 1.5 years left at best!
 
Quasar,

Is Bill M. from Maple Lake still around and giving checkrides?

Give Lakes a shot. Quick upgrade and you will have a good time there. Great first job and you'll be a heck of a stick running around at the barber pole in the ott 2. (BE02 for us oldtimers)
 
labatt said:
Quasar,

Is Bill M. from Maple Lake still around and giving checkrides?

Give Lakes a shot. Quick upgrade and you will have a good time there. Great first job and you'll be a heck of a stick running around at the barber pole in the ott 2. (BE02 for us oldtimers)
Click to expand...

Yep, he is still around.
 
A lot can change in the next 2 years... I suggest that you take whatever you can get as soon as you can get it - as long as your building time it'll definitely help you in the long run! Good luck
 
Yep.. Screw QOL and go to Lakes if you can.. You will never find a place with better people and a flying job that is more fun.. I agree that you will have QOL when you get to NW, and Lakes is the fastest way.. I gave up a few years of QOL to go to lakes and now my QOL is much, much better than many of my friends who went to "good" regionals.. Plus, if any of those guys who went to "good" regionals come to work where I do now.. There gonna be my gear biatches.. haha
 
Good luck in whatever do man, but i would suggest finding the company that fits you and gives the best upgrade and qol.

Yes you could go to GL and upgrade a year faster than most and if thats your thing than more power to you.
However if you want to know whats wrong with the industry just look at the above posts... "screw QOL" what an ignorant statement.

Those are the same personalities that own places like mesa and make a living off taking advantage of pilots.. good luck my friend but your a professional and dont sell yourself short.
 
Ignorant? I'm suffering in the short term so I can grab the fastest upgrade in the industry and get the hell out. It's not all bad at Lakes - pay is atrocious, management sucks, everyone else is freakin' great, and the flying is usually a lot of fun. There's a kind of punch-drunk comeraderie here that you don't see at all of the regionals. If this guy picks a regional with a "good QOL," he's likely to end up staying there twice as long as he should have to in order to get his time. Lakes isn't actively trying to screw you to the same degree as Mesa. They just understand why their pilots work for them, as well as their place in the industry. My statement's not ignorant, it's realistic. Low-time regional pilots are a dime a dozen. High-time major pilots aren't. The name of the game is going from Column A to Column B as fast as you can while staying safe and sane. Lakes is a great place to do that.

Good luck with school and with your legacy at NW, Quasar. I certainly won't bash your choice airline, but I hope it doesn't make you go through your career with blinders on. I used to dream about picking up the torch for my dad at UAL, but these days I'm not sure I'd take the job if they offered.
 
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Ignorant??? If lakes was flying RJ's and competing against the likes of Comair, Horizon, Air Whiskey, and everyone else, than yes, I would have been pissed about the pay and QOL.. However, Lakes flyes the routes that no one really wants in airplanes that no one really likes and for the most part, competes against no one except themselves.. Plus, your only "screwing" QOL for a few years.. Lakes doesn't undercut any other regional because of pilot pay.. Besides, when you go to a RJ airline, even if the upgrade takes a year longer (which more than likely would take 2 or 3 years longer) your gonna be on reserve for the first year flying 500 or maybe 800 hours. At Lakes, as soon as you hit Captain, your gonna be logging a chit load of time right out of the gate. So in reality, your speeding up your career to a major by 3 years or maybe a hell of a lot more.. And 3 years of seniority at a major is a ton. That could mean the difference of furlough vs. not furloughed when the next downturn comes. Hell, at some carriers right now with upgrades running 3-4 years, that could mean the difference of new higher vs. new captain..
 
The problem with going for the PIC time quick now is age 65 around the corner. You better already have most of the PIC time now and get your apps out to where you want to go because age 65 will stick a lot of people where they are at for years longer than planned. It's hard to say when age 65 will start, but I would bet within the next couple of years. An aviation career is a big crap shoot anyway, but now it is even dicier going to a company with low QOL since it is very possible you may be stuck there a lot longer than those who are there now will be since they will hopefully have been able to take advantage of the fast turbine PIC time and then escaped to something better before the big age 65 slow down. Unfortunately this is one more thing to consider in your career planning.
 
I dont think your gonna see a big slow down in hiring, even if the age 65 thing passes.. Everything is cyclical in the airlines. And we have just gotten out of the worst downturn in history.. I would expect for almost every major airline to start hiring like gangbusters in the next 2 or 3 years.. If you don't have the PIC and you miss this hiring boom, your gonna be screwed for a while.. Go get the PIC.. You can always leave lakes for a good commuter once you get 2 or 3 thousand PIC.. Then you will just be waiting for your call from the majors..
 
Done both (freight and Lakes...) Go to Lakes... and don't leave Lakes until you have 1500pic, as tempting as it may be to get the heck out while you are in the GLA trenches.
 
I had a class date with ACC that was offered while I was in training at Lakes. I chose to turn it down for several reasons:

-Concerns about how many had jumped from ACC to majors
-Not knowing my base right away with ACC
-Being knowingly placed in a base closer to my family
-Having known people that had worked for Lakes, I felt like I knew what I was getting into...I don't know anyone at ACC.

You gotta do what's right for you. As you can see, some of my reasons for coming to Lakes weren't really career-driven, just self-driven.

That said, the "punch drunk" mentality is an amazing way to describe life at Great Lakes. Sometimes I like to say that my life at Lakes is like a dark comedy. Stuff that is not funny, and in fact awful some days, is downright hilarious when you realize the rest of the pilot group has been through similar experiences. I don't regret coming here, and I don't think anyone else I've talked to (with the exception of one person) does, either.

We're like one great big dysfunctional family here sometimes, gutting our way through our time at the regionals, laughing a lot, getting mad once in a while, and then laughing at what made us mad...it's a level of pilot group unity that any union would die to create, in my opinion.

Best of luck with your decision.
 
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Why would you go to a Great Lakes, Scenic, or 135 outfit when regionals like ASA are hiring at 500/100 (350/14 if you know someone).

You can probably get hired at ANY regional right now if you try. Upgrade at Skywest is about 18 months on the Brasilia and 2 years on the jet. Don't sell yourself short.
 
His goal is to be ready for NWA when they start hiring again.

I have met far more 7-10yr Skywest pilots than Lakes pilots... in fact I would imagine the senior Lakes captains are around 3.5yrs seniority. Not a knock on SKW, that is just not this guys career goals. However, Bro upgrade at SKW is currently at 18mos.. So if not Lakes, SKW might be a second way to meet his goals and not be stuck.

Why would you go to a Great Lakes, Scenic, or 135 outfit when regionals like ASA are hiring at 500/100 (350/14 if you know someone).
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From what I heard upgrades are running very long, the future was questionable when Delta sold them to SKW. I still have no idea what in the end will happen at "acey," I am sure there are far more informed people about ASA on this board. If you lived in a city where ASA was based then why not. In fact, if you are looking for long term employment in this arena, I would advise to look at the airlines that are where you want to live. Pay and QOL is all within about $5/hr and 2 days off per month. There will probably be a big push to improve contracts/QOL as these carriers are fighting over the fewer and fewer number of pilots coming into the industry. This is long overdue.
 
If you need the 1000 turbine, multi, PIC, you won't get it any quicker than going to Scenic. You will upgrade at ATP mins as long as you don't do anything dumb and do well in the initial training. Only problem is you can't do your upgrade ride and ATP ride both at once. You have to go get your ATP. You are right, you won't get a whole lot of IFR especially in the summer, but if you just need to get the mins because you got the hook up at NW, its your place.
 
Trader J said:
What is attrition like at likes right now? Do they need people or is the hiring slow?
Click to expand...

Canadflyau is right on...the senior captains at Lakes are around 3.5 years...the really senior ones. Why is this? Attrition. No one is at Lakes to stay. Due to the attrition (as well as a bit of speculated growth), hiring is good right now at Lakes. In fact, we're having an open house in Denver on April 5th if anyone is interested, more information is available here: http://www.flygreatlakes.com/Jobs/Company wide.pdf

You'll have a tough time getting an interview without a connection of some sort, so if you don't know someone inside the company, perhaps the open house is a chance to get your resume moved to the "short pile."

Good luck.
 
I thought about skywest as well. The thing is though at scenic and also express jet I just found out, is that upgrade is at ATP mins. whereas skywest is 2500tt and 1000turbine crew; so if I get hired there with lets say 500/250, I will be sitting right seat for at lest 2-3 years just to get upgrade mins.

This is what I was really thinking. If I go to lakes, I will stay get the time and hop over to Compass. Their mins are 1500/1000 with a flow thru to NW. If I go to another regional, I would stay there in hopes of getting with NW later and skip the compass stage. I have a while to figure this all out still as I stated I have at best 1.5 yrs of college left.
 
I think Lakes is a good choice for you, QuasarZ, if you go in with your eyes open. The pay is low, you'll think your name is "junior man" and you'll fly an old turboprop. But you'll make some good friends, log a lot of time quickly and definitely learn a lot about flying, as you'll have no autopilot and fly around the Rockies. Plus, you'll get plenty of experience in IMC.

A lot of Lakers have moved from there onto career positions, so if you want to get the time to move onto NW, Lakes would be a reasonable choice for you.
 

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