Scenario Question - flameout over water

[satpak77]

Scenario question to get some hangar talk going.

You are PIC on a Part 91 King Air 350, over the ocean, taking the boss to Grand Cayman. Departure point does not matter for this question. You are happily at FL 280, and can easily make your destination, since you have full fuel. You are also at Max gross weight due to the boss's golf clubs and luggage, and all his buddies on board.

Lets say that one engine has mechanical issues and fails in flight. You are now with one good engine, at almost full power now, and must descend, since on one engine you can't hang out at 28,000 anymore.

You declare emergency, and the airplane seems to be happy now at 20,000. ATC acknowledges emergency and tells you where your nearest airstrip is, which is confirmed to be correct via your GPS.

Due to weather, winds, etc (it doesn't really matter, I am getting to the point...) you CANNOT MAKE THE NEAREST AIRSTRIP before flameout. Remember, you are on one engine, at almost full power, now flying at probably 170 TAS (not 280), and drinking the gas since you are flying in the high teens. You are flying at almost a 30-40% reduction in airspeed, and fuel flows are sky-high.

For the purposes of this question, for WHATEVER reason, you just ain't making it to the closest airstrip due to fuel flows and winds, etc.

You DO have liferaft, and individual life vests on board for all PAX, along with survival supplies, flares, etc. No questions in that area.

What would YOU do? Airplane has HF on board, and since it is an old air ambulance, also has VHF-FM and you can talk to ships on Marine channels. You also have SAT-COM.

1. Fly it till flameout, pointed towards the closest airstrip anyway. Better be close than nothing.

2. Call ATC and get SAR efforts initiated, and fly towards those assets, then ditch in the ocean under your own control before flameout. You can contact HF aviation units on your HF radio also, since you have their freqs. It is life or death emergency and you decide you might do this also.

3. Visually locate a cruise ship, ditch in his vicinity, before flameout, to take advantage of his resources and comm abilities, to call for additional help.

4. Argue these scenarios when it really happens and wish you posted on Flightinfo first to take advantage of all the experience.

5. This scenario is so statistically remote it is silly to discuss it. Similar to complete flight control failure on a DC-10, it just doesn't happen.

Guys, legit discussion (I know PT-6's don't fail, etc...I know that....I also know if you are topped off then fuel shouldn't be an issue if on one engine, but this is more of a how-would-you-handle-it question)

What would YOU do?

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

You forgot to consider "wet foot print"

Wet foot print is the scenario you just described. If an engine failure occurs at the most critical place over water, you can not make land after the drift down and TAS. Some corp. jets that go to HI have a wet foot print zone of 100 - 200 miles that would not allow them to make land after a single engine event.

All of those things you are suggesting as plans of action are fine, but you should have considered the wet foot print and not considered the trip in the King Air or any other type of plane that would not make it on one engine.

You did not discuss the equipment on board, either. I doubt the A/C was properly over-water equipped with survival gear and avionics.

What is legal and what is smart to do may be two separate things in this case.

Enjoy your swim!

PS: You asked what I would do. I would fly another type of plane or buy a ticket on an airliner!

 

[satpak77]

Wet foot print is the scenario you just described. If an engine failure occurs at the most critical place over water, you can not make land after the drift down and TAS. Some corp. jets that go to HI have a wet foot print zone of 100 - 200 miles that would not allow them to make land after a single engine event.

All of those things you are suggesting as plans of action are fine, but you should have considered the wet foot print and not considered the trip in the King Air or any other type of plane that would not make it on one engine.

You did not discuss the equipment on board, either. I doubt the A/C was properly over-water equipped with survival gear and avionics.

What is legal and what is smart to do may be two separate things in this case.

Enjoy your swim!

PS: You asked what I would do. I would fly another type of plane or buy a ticket on an airliner!

all good points...keep them coming

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Yes, you are describing a wet footprint. Not much to think about other than you needed to do better planning..

and no, no corp jets should go to Hawaii with ANY miles of wet footprint! - thats crazy.

Most pick the worst case scenario (driftdown to 10Kft due to depressurization for example) and make that the worst case ETP.

Not much to discuss other than launching out over the water like that is pretty, well, dumb?

 

[ruhroa]

wet foot print is a no go ....................................... no reason to take the discussion any furthur......... if you go you are a test pilot doing what you are not paid to do

 

[Buckeye]

If this scenario came to fruition and you were over water, find the closest cost gaurd ship or vessel equiped to help. This might require some HF knowledge, but talk on 121.5, the Coasties monitor it as well. Remember the basics of wet water ditching, consult the AFM if you can. Now to aviod this situation see the above post.

 

[semperfido]

as mentioned already- don't do that trip in the first place.

 

[satpak77]

thanks for the responses, good points

 

[pilotyip]

In the P-3 we sometimes ran into situations where the airplane would fly further on 3 engines than on four, particularly at low altitudes. Shutting down engines in flight for range and time airborne considerations was a routine event. I do not know the exact mechanics of PT-6 Fuel flow, but shutting down a turbine engine at lower altitudes may not effect range that much. Look at SFC two Eng. and SE. Max altitude at max SE power that gives best L/D will give you best range. Remember you are now going to burn alternate and reserve to get to land. If ditching is the only alternative, pick a fuel remaining number and ditch at that number. A power on min rate of descent is the best way to fly into the water. As per above if that is the only option, declare an emergency and scream for all the help you can get.

 

[Spooky 2]

Scenario question to get some hangar talk going.

You are PIC on a Part 91 King Air 350, over the ocean, taking the boss to Grand Cayman. Departure point does not matter for this question. You are happily at FL 280, and can easily make your destination, since you have full fuel. You are also at Max gross weight due to the boss's golf clubs and luggage, and all his buddies on board.

Lets say that one engine has mechanical issues and fails in flight. You are now with one good engine, at almost full power now, and must descend, since on one engine you can't hang out at 28,000 anymore.

You declare emergency, and the airplane seems to be happy now at 20,000. ATC acknowledges emergency and tells you where your nearest airstrip is, which is confirmed to be correct via your GPS.

Due to weather, winds, etc (it doesn't really matter, I am getting to the point...) you CANNOT MAKE THE NEAREST AIRSTRIP before flameout. Remember, you are on one engine, at almost full power, now flying at probably 170 TAS (not 280), and drinking the gas since you are flying in the high teens. You are flying at almost a 30-40% reduction in airspeed, and fuel flows are sky-high.

For the purposes of this question, for WHATEVER reason, you just ain't making it to the closest airstrip due to fuel flows and winds, etc.

You DO have liferaft, and individual life vests on board for all PAX, along with survival supplies, flares, etc. No questions in that area.

What would YOU do? Airplane has HF on board, and since it is an old air ambulance, also has VHF-FM and you can talk to ships on Marine channels. You also have SAT-COM.

1. Fly it till flameout, pointed towards the closest airstrip anyway. Better be close than nothing.

2. Call ATC and get SAR efforts initiated, and fly towards those assets, then ditch in the ocean under your own control before flameout. You can contact HF aviation units on your HF radio also, since you have their freqs. It is life or death emergency and you decide you might do this also.

3. Visually locate a cruise ship, ditch in his vicinity, before flameout, to take advantage of his resources and comm abilities, to call for additional help.

4. Argue these scenarios when it really happens and wish you posted on Flightinfo first to take advantage of all the experience.

5. This scenario is so statistically remote it is silly to discuss it. Similar to complete flight control failure on a DC-10, it just doesn't happen.

Guys, legit discussion (I know PT-6's don't fail, etc...I know that....I also know if you are topped off then fuel shouldn't be an issue if on one engine, but this is more of a how-would-you-handle-it question)

What would YOU do?

Remember the four C's of over water emergencies.

1. Communicate
2. Confess
3. Climb
4. Comply

These may not all be applicable to your specific situation but they are a good starting point. Obviously you have declared an emergency. You should be specific and ask that AMVER Alert be declared and use that information to guide you in a possible ditching scenario. Obviously a ditching while under some degree of power is more desireable than a non-powered aqpproach and touchdown. Follow your AFM for guidence regarding water landing procedures and techniques. Good luck.

As others noted, better prior planning would probably have prevented this decision making process.

 

[G100driver]

Might want to invest in that Cuba overflight permit. If in fact GC is your destination, then this should take care of the wetprint.

If you cannot go without a wet footprint then best to stay at home. We never take a leg with a wet footrprint. Stupid to do so.

 

[X-Wind]

I would hope your first conclusion would be a no go!

Would you put your family on that flight?


However, for what ever reason you do decide to go and you do have a safety of flight issue enroute, and you do make it to Land. Now you ask yourself, would I ever do that again?

I'm curious, what is your answer?

 

[Spooky 2]

I would hope your first conclusion would be a no go!

Would you put your family on that flight?


However, for what ever reason you do decide to go and you do have a safety of flight issue enroute, and you do make it to Land. Now you ask yourself, would I ever do that again?

I'm curious, what is your answer?

I don't think he said that he had done this but was looking for contructive information on how to handle the emergency if it happened. How he got in to the fix to begin with is moot.

 

[Freightdog99]

Another thing to consider when flying a King Air with hydraulic landing gear over water is a failure of one of the up lines resulting in a loss of hydraulic pressure to keep the landing gear retracted. Not to many people take this scenario into consideration when flying over water in a King Air or other type where hydraulic pressure is required to hold the landing gear up.

Take the same scenario above and even if you don't have a wet footprint, figure out what would happen if you lost pressure to hold the gear up. You may end up having a wet footprint after all. Just something to think about as your flying over extended open water.

 

[Choppy]

Well for sure I would head to the nearest destination. How do you know you wont make it? Get things lined up if you dont but press on to the nearest land! If someone is injured in the forced landing a hospital is closer than out in the water near a vessel.

 

[satpak77]

I don't think he said that he had done this but was looking for contructive information on how to handle the emergency if it happened. How he got in to the fix to begin with is moot.

Indeed correct. I would never put myself in that situation, but when "perfect planning" turns to crap (nearest strip gets closed, etc) I was looking for what the audience would do.

Me, I would probably ditch under power near some boats or ocean liners and ideally have already made direct contact via HF with Coast Guard units and also have relayed my ditch-location to ATC and overhead traffic on 121.5/ATC freq.

 

[Spooky 2]

Indeed correct. I would never put myself in that situation, but when "perfect planning" turns to crap (nearest strip gets closed, etc) I was looking for what the audience would do.

Me, I would probably ditch under power near some boats or ocean liners and ideally have already made direct contact via HF with Coast Guard units and also have relayed my ditch-location to ATC and overhead traffic on 121.5/ATC freq.

So what frequency do you think the CG guards these days? BTW, the military ships do not guard 121.5 and most merchant ships only guard their radios so many hours a day thanks to the latest automation.

 

[Freight Dog]

I'd go in the back, throw the boss, his friends and the clubs out the door and buy myself some time...

Y'know.. less weight = higher altitude = less fuel burn = fighting chance.

Maybe that's why I can't find a corporate pilot job...

 

[satpak77]

So what frequency do you think the CG guards these days? BTW, the military ships do not guard 121.5 and most merchant ships only guard their radios so many hours a day thanks to the latest automation.

8983 and 5696 have historically had lots of traffic. I know that is an "internal" freq and not something designed as a Guard or Initial Contact freq, such as 8291 or 12290 KHZ was.

11175 also but that is another "internal" military US Global HF (typically C-5, C-17 traffic, amongst others)

156.800 VHF-FM is Marine Ch.16 which almost all boats are up on

 

[Spooky 2]

8983 and 5696 have historically had lots of traffic. I know that is an "internal" freq and not something designed as a Guard or Initial Contact freq, such as 8291 or 12290 KHZ was.

11175 also but that is another "internal" military US Global HF (typically C-5, C-17 traffic, amongst others)

156.800 VHF-FM is Marine Ch.16 which almost all boats are up on

You didn't score on that answer. Sorry. 4125 is the traditional USCG HF emergency frequency. Google it and you will learn more than you ever wanted. Obviously in todays world other aircraft, SATCOM and last but not least if you really think there is even a remote possibility of ditching, tell whom ever your talking to, ATC, etc. to notify AMVER of your distress as that maybe your only chance of survival once in the water.