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Scary Numbers

  • Thread starter Thread starter Skyline
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wrxpilot said:
Assuming you had a 12 hr duty day, you're gate to gate time is going to be around 7 hrs, so you'd hit your times within about 12 flying days. Am I totally off base here on my estimates?

Yes, you are off on your times. A 121 pilot can be on duty for 16 hours, 6 days a week. Rarely does the duty day average 7 hours block, more like 5. So, a pilot hits his 80 hours in 16 days. 16 x 16 = 256. This averages 6 weeks 2 days work for someone that has a 40 hr a week job.
 
GrnClvrs said:
Rarely does the duty day average 7 hours block, more like 5.
By the same token, the *average* duty day is not 16 hours, 16 hours is the maximum you can be on duty you're not going to *average* the maximum (and if I understand 121.471(c) correctly you can't possible average 16 hours of duty over several days) yet you present the 16 hours as if it's an average. Averageing 16 hours of duty day in day out is no more realistic than averageing 7 hours of block time on a regular basis.
 
Airlines

A Squared,

You must have not flown with the companies that I had to because they make an art out of maximising the duty day. It is no fun.


Skyline
 
Does the term "Beating a Dead Horse" mean anything...

...to you?

I think you've made your point.

It sucks.

So what?

You can't change it. I still wouldn't do anything else. I'm ruined. And probably going to hell anyway.

Dude. You're harshing my buzz.
 
Boot straps?

Ever wonder why they are on boots? Grab them, pull hard, don't look back, no regrets.

They are also on there to help pull your boots on so you can go out there and kick ass :smash:
 
No Regrets man !!!

Remember. These are the best days of your life !! The things you do, the accomplishments made, the sacrifices taken will stand as a testament to the accomplishments of all mankind. You guys are Pilots man !!! Pilots !!! Thank God you didn't waste your lives as an emergancy room Doc or ACLU attourney. Right or wrong the world needs you all. SO get out there and fuel that 150, study your manuals and text books, eat your canned mac and cheese and FLY !! The world needs you. NO REGRETS !!!


Skyline
 
Skyline,

Your schtick has become has become stale. You feel down, in a pit, your life has become a failure. Not everyone chooses to be be dragged into your pit. You're upset that the word doesn't see your tragedy as deeply or dramatically as you...frustrated that the biggest wave of sympathy that rolls out after you is an emphatic "who cares?"

Get thee behind me, Satan. I'm tired of listening to you.
 
Avbug

Avbug

I am sorry that you don't appreciate my style. I like you. I am disappointed but not sad or in a pit. My opinions come from almost two decades of experience and background. I know what goes through the heads of new pilots and why they make the choices that they do. My only aim is to be a counter voice to the tidal wave of false information that comes from magazines and gossip. News travels fast about "some guy" who got on with SWA with low time. No one wants to hear about the used up 58 year old with nothing to show for a career in the air. I know that my ideas will not sit well with this group but they are no less true and are with value. If I am sad at all it is for all my friends who were ruined by aviation and for the ones who are about to be ruined. We both care Just use diffrent approaches.

Skyline
 
Skyline said:
No one wants to hear about the used up 58 year old with nothing to show for a career in the air.
Evidently, major airline pilots feel the same way, even those who were already stepping large and smiling with ease...

Case Study: Barry Seal

Adler Berriman Seal, a former TWA 747 captain, flew cocaine from Colombia to the United States for over seven years during the late 1970's and early 1980's. Seal was recruited as a trafficking pilot by a personal friend who worked for the Colombian cocaine trafficking organization headed by Jorge Ochoa, and eventually worked directly with that organization's leadership.

Initially, Seal flew direct trafficking flights between Louisiana, and Colombia. He piloted a number of different smuggling aircraft, the largest of which was a Vietnam-vintage C-123 capable of holding tons of packaged cocaine. Seal always departed and returned to his Louisiana base at night to reduce chances of interdiction. His typical route took him over the Yucatan Peninsula (not over the more heavily patrolled Yucatan channel) and directly over Central America to the eastern tip of Honduras, then south to any one of a number of airstrips and airports in north central Colombia.

According to Seal, the Ochoa organization paid Colombian officials bribes of $10,000 to $25,000, per flight for a "window," i.e., a specific time, position and altitude designated for the smuggling flight's penetration of the Colombian air space. If this payment was not made, the aircraft was susceptible to interception by Colombian authorities. Seal generally arrived in Colombia at dawn. His aircraft was loaded with cocaine and refueled within an hour, sometimes within fifteen minutes; and he returned immediately to the United States.

Seal used two fairly simple techniques to avoid interdiction on his return trip to the United States: both were effective because of the heavy helicopter traffic running between the Gulf Coast States and the hundreds of oil rigs located off shore. First, when he reached the middle of the Gulf on his return trip, Seal slowed his aircraft to 110-120 knots and was thus perceived by monitoring radar as a helicopter, not a plane. Secondly, at a distance of about 50 miles off the United States coast, he dropped the aircraft to an altitude of 500-1000 feet in order to co-mingle with the helicopter traffic, and thereby arouse even less suspicion.

Once in United States airspace, Seal proceeded to prearranged points 40 to 50 miles inland. The points were mapped out in advance with Loran C, a long-range navigational instrument. Further inland, he was generally joined by a helicopter. The two aircraft proceeded to a drop zone, where the helicopter hovered close to the ground. Seal then dropped the load of cocaine from the airplane on a parachute; the helicopter picked up the load from the drop zone and delivered it to waiting automobiles, which eventually moved the cocaine to Miami. Seal proceeded to land his drug-free aircraft at any nearby airport.

Seal was well paid for his services. He claims his top fee for smuggling a kilogram of cocaine was $5,000; an average load was 300 kilograms. His most profitable single load netted him $1.5 million. He was never apprehended in connection with this operation.
 
Interesting

That was an interesting story. Someone should make a movie out of that. Come to think of it wasn't there a movie starring Dennis Hopper as a drug running pilot back in the 80's. Does anyone know the title of that movie?

Skyline
 
I am sorry that you don't appreciate my style. I like you. I am disappointed but not sad or in a pit. My opinions come from almost two decades of experience and background. I know what goes through the heads of new pilots and why they make the choices that they do. My only aim is to be a counter voice to the tidal wave of false information that comes from magazines and gossip. News travels fast about "some guy" who got on with SWA with low time. No one wants to hear about the used up 58 year old with nothing to show for a career in the air. I know that my ideas will not sit well with this group but they are no less true and are with value. If I am sad at all it is for all my friends who were ruined by aviation and for the ones who are about to be ruined. We both care Just use diffrent approaches.

You seem to feel that nobody who disagrees with your depressed point of view has the requisite experience to know the difference. As though everybody will eventually come around to your way of thinking when they know as much as you, and have seen as much as you.

Thus far you've indicated you spent a few years flying the back country, and feel that shows extensive effort in reaching your goals. It's unfortunate that you see it as wasted time. Weather it represents a significant investment in your career I can't say, though we both clearly see it had no benifit in advancing you in the direction you wish.

A lot of folks with more experience than yourself might just disagree with you...but you are quick to label us garbagemen of the sky, or dismiss us as gypsies that haven't yet seen the light.

When everybody is wrong but you...that should tell you something.

Tell me this; you indicate twenty years in your career thus far, but at the same time, tell us that you can never achieve your goals. Why can you not achieve your goals?
 
Avbug

Avbug,

The reason I feel confident in my views is that I have been around and surveyed my own experiences and those of others. There are few old timers who are still flying the smaller crummier stuff. I know one guy who is in his late 60's but he has never married and still lives with him mom.

I am sure that you could dig up a few pollyanna dreamers who would disagree but I can assure you that they are few and far in between. Some of the other Web sites like airlinepilotpay.com has a generous helping of angry, crusty old timers like me who spout the same stuff as I. I am not saying that everyone is wrong, but only those who feel strongly against my views are willing and interested in replying to my posts here.

I am in my late 30's and have watched the industry cycle a few times now. My opinion is that unless you get hired by a good company by the time you are 35 the benifits begin to sharply drop off. The way things are going now even if I were to totally invest myself again I would have to wait till I am in my early 40's before hiring heats up enough to get hired at a good place. At most companies that means I would be in my mid to late 50's before I was to upgrade, if ever. I have a wife and soon to be 4 small children. I would miss most of the best years of thier growing lives being on reserve and on the move as a junior pilot for an airline, and would have to suffer low wages again. I think it is urgent to get hired by a good company in your 20's. By the time you reach an age to start a family you will have the seniority and wages to properly support them.

These are the reasons I feel it is important for all of you to focus on getting to a real flying job. Some of these other funner things are distractions that cost a lot in the long run. Right now 20K seems like a good pay scale and you may feel comfortible but add a wife, children, a self-funded retirement plan, college savings, and a few aging parents to the mix and I assure you that your attitude will change.

Skyline
 
The reason I feel confident in my views is that I have been around and surveyed my own experiences and those of others.

You serveyed yourself? Now that's rhetorical. And somewhat ironic.

I am sure that you could dig up a few pollyanna dreamers who would disagree but I can assure you that they are few and far in between.

I guess I'm one of them, then.

I think it is urgent to get hired by a good company in your 20's.

That's your opinion...and a ridiculous one, at that. But you're certainly entitled to it.

I am not saying that everyone is wrong, but only those who feel strongly against my views...

Need more be said?

I am in my late 30's

And you feel it's too late. That's really sad. You sound a lot to me like what a teenager sounds like when he or she says "when I was young..."

How about an explaination of the discrepancies between these statements...which came from the same paragraph...

My opinion is that unless you get hired by a good company by the time you are 35 the benifits begin to sharply drop off. I think it is urgent to get hired by a good company in your 20's.

Evidently you haven't seen much of the industry, as you seem to have no realistic concept of the way things work. You appear to be suggesting that individuals seek employment with a major airline by the time they're in their early 20's. Seeing as most wont' graduate college until their early 20's, and won't be eligible to start seeking such a position for a good ten years or more afterward, a typical realistic starting range for many majors will be the mid thirties or later.

Folks do start earlier, but folks also start later, and in this day and age, people of all ages at all levels aren't uncommon.

You seem to have appointed yourself the missionary of dragging-people-down-to-your-level, if the first, and lowest order. Why is that? Does it bother you or threaten you that others are content in their place or position, and confident in their future? You haven't even reached a good starting point yet, have dismissed yourself as a failure, and won't be content until everyone bends their knee in abject defference to your martyrdom.

People have the capability of thinking for themselves. If you're just waking up to the realities of the industry after 20 years, then that's too bad for you. To have gone this long with your eyes closed is not only a tragedy of epic proportions (for you), but also nearly criminal. After all, our most basic responsibility is to see and avoid. If you couldn't see your career coming and avoid this disaster you have named your life, then where does that leave you?

You have the utter arrogance to assume that anyone who doesn't match your misguided idea of success is a failure. Anyone not flying for a major airline is a failure. The rest of the industry are mere polyannas, mere flying garbagemen who are unworthy to fill the roll you exhalt...a lesser genre of failed souls who fill the leftover positions that enable you to step-stone your way to the top. In your deluded and skewed viewpoint, the rest of the world around you serves as the fifedom beneath your kingdom. Foolish, saneless serfs who never made the grade and never will. Worse, your view places them all as the foolish or ignorant who will never be able to see what you can see...because you surveyed yourself.

The final irony to your arrogance is that you don't see yourself as arrogant, nor do you see that your attitude isn't a slight on the rest of the flying society, but only on yourself. It's ugly, it's jaded, it's bitter. Despite your best effort at surveying yourself, it's also far from reality.

Corporate pilots who have more days off, are home more nights, and make very high liveable wages, are fools and failures; they can never match your high standard. Freight pilots, flying for firms not in chapter 11 like most major airlines, bringing in more money per mile, often with as good or better benifits, pay, and lifestyle, will never rate your high exhalted position.

Ag pilots, flying farmers who feed the world and their own families, will never reach your exhalted position. Helicopter pilots, working long tiring hours for little thanks as they pluck survivors from rooftops and bring lifesaving supplies to crowded hospital docks, will certainly never measure up. They couldn't begin to hope to, and probably won't even try.

I won't even start with tanker pilots. We're unworthy.

Of course, you haven't touched on those of us that wear several hats...play prissy bus driver one day, and go get dirty the next. By choice. Peolpe who don't need to justify what we do or what we make, be it high or low, because perhaps we have a different standard of what constitutes success. Some of, myself included, think determining success by one's job description, by one's bottom line, and by the size of one's toys is about as infantile and immature as one can get. It speaks of a great lack of development in your own life...when you spout these things it really isn't a slight on the rest of the world, but on yourself. Translated plainly; your bitching only makes you look bad.

Think about that.
 
avbug said:
You serveyed yourself? Now that's rhetorical. And somewhat ironic.



I guess I'm one of them, then.



That's your opinion...and a ridiculous one, at that. But you're certainly entitled to it.



Need more be said?



And you feel it's too late. That's really sad. You sound a lot to me like what a teenager sounds like when he or she says "when I was young..."

How about an explaination of the discrepancies between these statements...which came from the same paragraph...



Evidently you haven't seen much of the industry, as you seem to have no realistic concept of the way things work. You appear to be suggesting that individuals seek employment with a major airline by the time they're in their early 20's. Seeing as most wont' graduate college until their early 20's, and won't be eligible to start seeking such a position for a good ten years or more afterward, a typical realistic starting range for many majors will be the mid thirties or later.

Folks do start earlier, but folks also start later, and in this day and age, people of all ages at all levels aren't uncommon.

You seem to have appointed yourself the missionary of dragging-people-down-to-your-level, if the first, and lowest order. Why is that? Does it bother you or threaten you that others are content in their place or position, and confident in their future? You haven't even reached a good starting point yet, have dismissed yourself as a failure, and won't be content until everyone bends their knee in abject defference to your martyrdom.

People have the capability of thinking for themselves. If you're just waking up to the realities of the industry after 20 years, then that's too bad for you. To have gone this long with your eyes closed is not only a tragedy of epic proportions (for you), but also nearly criminal. After all, our most basic responsibility is to see and avoid. If you couldn't see your career coming and avoid this disaster you have named your life, then where does that leave you?

You have the utter arrogance to assume that anyone who doesn't match your misguided idea of success is a failure. Anyone not flying for a major airline is a failure. The rest of the industry are mere polyannas, mere flying garbagemen who are unworthy to fill the roll you exhalt...a lesser genre of failed souls who fill the leftover positions that enable you to step-stone your way to the top. In your deluded and skewed viewpoint, the rest of the world around you serves as the fifedom beneath your kingdom. Foolish, saneless serfs who never made the grade and never will. Worse, your view places them all as the foolish or ignorant who will never be able to see what you can see...because you surveyed yourself.

The final irony to your arrogance is that you don't see yourself as arrogant, nor do you see that your attitude isn't a slight on the rest of the flying society, but only on yourself. It's ugly, it's jaded, it's bitter. Despite your best effort at surveying yourself, it's also far from reality.

Corporate pilots who have more days off, are home more nights, and make very high liveable wages, are fools and failures; they can never match your high standard. Freight pilots, flying for firms not in chapter 11 like most major airlines, bringing in more money per mile, often with as good or better benifits, pay, and lifestyle, will never rate your high exhalted position.

Ag pilots, flying farmers who feed the world and their own families, will never reach your exhalted position. Helicopter pilots, working long tiring hours for little thanks as they pluck survivors from rooftops and bring lifesaving supplies to crowded hospital docks, will certainly never measure up. They couldn't begin to hope to, and probably won't even try.

I won't even start with tanker pilots. We're unworthy.

Of course, you haven't touched on those of us that wear several hats...play prissy bus driver one day, and go get dirty the next. By choice. Peolpe who don't need to justify what we do or what we make, be it high or low, because perhaps we have a different standard of what constitutes success. Some of, myself included, think determining success by one's job description, by one's bottom line, and by the size of one's toys is about as infantile and immature as one can get. It speaks of a great lack of development in your own life...when you spout these things it really isn't a slight on the rest of the world, but on yourself. Translated plainly; your bitching only makes you look bad.

Think about that.

In the 4000 some odd post you have made here, have you ever been nice to anyone? It seems you must always put down other people and their ideas and anyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot. I bet you are a riot at parties. I just wonder if you are the same way when you are not hiding behind your computer. But with your average of over 3 post a day for 5 years, obviously most of your contact with humans is from the computer.

Rattler71
 
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Gotta ask once again, Rattler, if you have the capability within you, the most basic intelligence, to stick to the thread topic, or even to post on-topic. Can you do that? Can you?

Or are you hopping over here so we can talk some more about you? Aren't you the one that thought three things inoperative on an airplane was the end of the world? It's no wonder you have time for little to discuss outside yourself...one who goes through life that afraid of his own shadow certainly needs some source of security.

This probably isn't it, however.

No, I don't go to parties. Yes, I'm the same in person. But a whole lot less hospitable, and generally someone who you want to shake hands with in daylight. But you see, this thread isn't about me, it's about Skyline, and his feeling that the industry has let him down. He feels that it's all at an end, that he's already failed, when in fact, he's really just begun.

Perhaps he just needs some industry reassurance that he isn't at the end of his rope, yet.

In the 4000 some odd post you have made here,

Incidentally, it's that many here...I believe a lot more on the old board, and more before that...and this of a number of other boards...and yes, I do get out from behind the computer. Usually just long enough to eat, shoot, and fly.
 
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