Say it ain't so, ZW

[Dirty Sanchez]

I have heard from two sources (Dell, the guy with the sim used during the interview, for one) that Air Wisconsin has joined forces with Regional Airline Academy in Deland, FL to obtain pilots.

The program at RAA, the same school involved in Colgan PFT, costs an extra $25,000 and the 700 hour TT, 100 hour ME pilot leaves with a CRJ type. Then on to the Air Wisconsin interview, where the sim portion will be waived.

Why would Air Wisconsin go this route when they probably have hundreds of resumes on file from people with 135 or 121 experience?

WTF?

 

[crashpad]

I generally put more stock in rumors from those with a higher number of posts. (no offense DS).

I don't think Air Wisco would even stoop this low.

A word of caution about this school and ones like it. After reviewing their website, it strikes me as similar to the now bankrupt Airline Training Academy (The owners scammed millions from students before filing and fleaing).

It's probably legit, but if I were looking at this kind of program I would only look at the ones owned exclusively by the airline.
Mesa's program is a good example. Comairs program is a bad example. IMHO.

 

[DASHDRIVER]

DS

Your rumor startled me and be it that I was sitting in the crew room inATW I walked down the hallway to ask the training department about it. They had no idea what I was talking about. The only thing that they could think of was that in the last class two guys with about 800 hours bought types in the CRJ at our CAE facility down in DEN. Trained by our instructors. They were given special consideration as more of an experiment thatn anything else. Thats all I know.

regards DD

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Sorry about the few posts, I just registered. I have been visiting the site for awhile. I was told this when I interviewed last week. Is that credible?

 

[Sinca3]

I generally put more stock in rumors from those with a higher number of posts. (no offense DS).

Crash I wouldn't judge some ones post solely on how often they actually post! I very very rarely post here but feel that I have a good grasp of what is going on in the industry. That said I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the validity of the original posters comments.
I could say since you have only been registered on this site for 9 months your posts have no merit.....
Cheers, Prost, Salute!
Happy St. Patty's Day

 

[DHPFLYN]

RAA

I can tell you that it is true !!! RAA sends you to Denver for a CRJ type rating after you attend RAA for some sort of 20 day program. After they pass the type ride they are sent for a interview with either CO-EX or Air Wisconsin. A f/o that I flew with today told me about this. He has two friends that just started instructing at RAA. He knows of atleast 2 pilots that have gone to Air Wisconsin for interviews in the past couple weeks. It seems RAA has to come up with other ideas since Colgan is no longer pft.

Hope that helps answer some questions

 

[BoilerUP]

Why would Coex care if somebody bought themselves a CRJ type? Last time I checked, they were an all-EMB fleet...

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Did I miss something somewhere or do you not have to have an ATP to have a type rating? Which, last time I checked was 1500tt. It sure was when I got mine.

 

[DHPFLYN]

Well I guess I should have said express jet no coex. You do not have to have 1500 to get a type.

 

[crashpad]

Crash I wouldn't judge some ones post solely on how often they actually post!
Cheers, Prost, Salute!
Happy St. Patty's Day

Sinca, that's just my opinion on validity of rumors, I'm not judging DS. Most of my posts have no merit....I would agree.

Happy St. Pats from a fellow Irishman

DS;

Yeah man, if someone told you in an Air Wisco interview, I'd say that's credible...unfortunate, but credible. Funky avatar, I gotta get one of those! I'm off to search now.....

 

[T-Gates]

Did I miss something somewhere or do you not have to have an ATP to have a type rating? Which, last time I checked was 1500tt. It sure was when I got mine.

You do not need to do the ATP at the same time as the type. I have a SD3 type on my Commercial Certificate. But I know FSI won't type anyone with less than 1000 hours. And if you get a type with no time in type, or no turbine time, you have a restriction placed on your Type that you cannot act as PIC on that airplane until you complete 25 hours of IOE on that type.

As far as this RAA/Air Whiskey thing goes, I think RAA is making some $$$ trying to convince people that if they go and get typed that they will get more job offers... What good will a CL-65 type do with no time in the plane and no job offer? I have no idea....

 

[crashpad]

It all about sucking life from somebodys' dreams to make a buck.
If Wisco endorses this without so much as a finger lifted by their MEC and ALPA brethren to protest this kind of practice....well, they won't be able to distinguish themselves from Mesa now will they?

 

[AWACoff]

All these rumors about 2 guys getting hired with 800TT are UNTRUE!!

They actually only had about 400TT. Pat Doyle stopped down in our recurrent last Monday and told us this. He said they were both really sharp. I guess we'll find out when they hit the line.
I got hired at Lakes with less TT than that and I didn't kill anybody. Maybe they won't either.

 

[crashpad]

The problem facing ZW is'nt weather inexperienced pilots who pay-for-training are safe. It's the beginning of the end of any semblance of pilot unity and structural cohesiveness within the Air Wisconsin group itself. ZW is quickly descending from; 'we only hire the most qualified pilots because we take pride in everything we do'. -to- 'you can buy your way onboard without earning what the rest of us have worked our whole careers for.' What this new cadre of pilots will do to the pride and self-respect of Air Wisconsin pilots and everything they have built will be truely sad...truely.
Management may very well be initiating a Jonothan Ornstein blueprint for success.

 

[Rottweiller]

Going through the RAA program isn't AWAC doing a pay for training stunt. The candidates from the RAA program are trained by AWAC sim instructors (moonlighting for CAE if you like), and it is on their reccommendation that they get at least an interview. It's up to them after that. There are NO guarantees of a job or anything, just an interview and not all get even that chance.

The RAA program is tough and 1/3 of those going through have washed out and lost their money up to that point. They do come out with a type on their commercial, just as you need one if you have the money to own and fly your own Lear on a comm ticket.

 

[Speedtree]

Crashpad,

I don't believe our pilots or union have the authority to accept or reject anyone the company wants to hire. It is my understanding that we can deny them union membership after their probation period. We can also put pilots on the interview team which could affect whether someone gets hired or not.

a few points:

2 pilots completed a training program which involved being trained at CAE in CRJ simulators by ZW instructors at their own expense. Totally separate from our training.

Air Wisconsin has traditionally hired high-time, 121 experienced pilots who are now leaving for LCCs now that our expansion has slowed compared to what was projected back in 2001.

It seems the company might be choosing to hire lower time individuals who will stay with the company long enough to offset the initial training costs.

If this is the case it would seem reasonable to expect the company to be impressed with a pilot who has a CRJ type rating from the same facility who does our training. This is in no way a requirement for employment or application. These two are probably 2 out of approximately 100 recent new-hires.

It shows the continued benefit of working for a company like AWAC that people are doing this. You don't see many people getting types for the 1900 to work at Great Lakes or Skyway, or getting types to work at Comair either. I don't advocate it but it's their decision. When we see new-hires who are unsafe and a liability to our operations then I expect the union will have something to say. Until then it seems much rumor and ado about nothing.

It's like you have a chip on your shoulder or something. Don't be hurtful.

 

[crashpad]

Speedtree;

You are wise and AWAC is lucky to have you.
I don't think it's a 'chip', more like a little guy with a pitchfork who mostly wins over the dude with the halo on my other shoulder.
I've been following Air Wisco since the early 90s' and think of it as a sporting event. It's been a real bummer lately, as the underdog I would like to see win keeps getting tackled.
I didn't mean to be hurtful and will govern my enthusiasm.

 

[beech1900kid]

I am of the belief that the union had better say something about it.

As PIC who has to fly with these guys, you had all better realize that the Captain is doing two jobs up there when he has some dip sh*t FO with only 600 hours. It's a liability and you had better pray you don't even come close to getting us killed or you will find yourself in remedial training under my recommendation.
Also, if you were sorry enough to find yourself in the position to have to pay $7000 for a type in a plane like the RJ, know that a lot of guys who put their blood, sweat, and tears into becomming a pilot are going to be sitting on interview boards at the majors/nationals. Try explaining to them how you barely obtain a CFI, drop 7K and then sit in an RJ fat dumb and happy not having the slightest idea of how much the rest of the airline thinks you suck.

PS - history tells us a lot...find an old gulfstrem guy and ask him his feelings

 

[crashpad]

....or you will find yourself in remedial training under my recommendation.

This is serious, stearn, and a little kinky......how can I get in on this?

 

[aview1]

beech1900kid you asked, I will answer.

"PS - history tells us a lot...find an old gulfstrem guy and ask him his feelings"

I myself am not a Gulfstream guy, nor have I been, but I do have several friends who went that route. Most of them were hired on at majors, with a few at nationals Most are now on furlough. Though a few made it above the cut lines.

On the subject of paying for a type, I wouldn't.

On the subect of low hours, I had 200 hours and was flying turbine equipment in the military, low hours do not equate to poor flying skills. I have seen many low hour sharp sticks. I have also seen high hour, really bad pilots.

 

[DHPFLYN]

blah blah blah blah blah

 

[chperplt]

DHPFLYN


Did you ever get that interview with Colgan? If so, how did it go?

 

[beech1900kid]

Aview1 -


Guys who pay for a type - You can have all the faith you want in low time pilots, but you know it and everyone here knows it, no stick and rudder skill from any scab who bought a type will ever replace solid experience in either seat. Low time pilots occupy a seat...they don't fly an airplane. The Captain has to pull the weight of the entire ship, and the FA might as well be up there for all the good that a low time pilot does.

Military pilots...we all know what kind of screening programs the military has for their pilots. OF COURSE they are going to do well with their pilot training. All the dim witted and half assed are wiped out during pre-screening. The so-so's are shown the door during initial training and then the just okay don't pass flight training and end up painting runways. Only the best see the seat of the T37, and yes, they do have low time but can fly the hell out of an airplane. You are comparing apples to oranges here. Besides which, any military man....not just pilots, deserve only the best for what they are doing for this country. They are the ones out there on a daily basis defending our right to live as Americans and be free from terrorism.

Don't compare the two....a scab who buys a type just laid out 7K for some sim time just so he can wear his stripes and hat and hope that finally now that he wears his "cool airline pilot uniform" some chick with an 1/8 brain will want him for a few minutes until she finds out he is part of the 80% of pilots who are complete
self absorbed losers and pleasure themselves to pictures of the 777.

I leave you with this: "You can get a good look at a T-Bone by sticking your head up a cow's a*s, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's advice?"

 

[aview1]

beech1900kid,

I am in the military, and have defended this country. I know about the process a h*ll of alot more than you. Grow up young man, learn what a scab is before you atempt to throw around words for which you obviously have now idea what they mean.

I look forward to myself, or anyone I know on a hiring board one day at a major, when we come across someone like you. Your in for a wake up call with an attitide like that. You have no idea of the implications, or true meaning of the word scab.

 

[searching]

wow,

now people who buy types are suposedly scabs

pathetic. 1900 guy you just insulted thousands of current and wannabee Southwest pilots. Bet you're a welcome jumpseater.

 

[beech1900kid]

Exxxxxxxxcellent......He He He He He....

Struck a cord didn't I boys???

Ask yourselves this. If pay for training was such a great program, why did every airline that mattered get rid of it by 99'??? Paying for a type just to get an interview with 600 hours is the same thing. Parallels the PFT system almost to the T. Look at history guys.

Aview 1 answer me this and then I'm done - There are two RJs on the tarmac. One has two pilots hired with 2000Total Time, 121 experience, and 2000 hours a piece in the RJ. The other RJ has an "experiment" FO who got hired with 600TT and a type, and the Capt made PIC when he turned 23 with only 1500 total. Both are going from ATL to ORD severe turbulence, holiday traffic, thunderstoms, icing, an MEL'd generator, two hour delays, and pissed off and drunk PAX. You have to put them all on one plane at that very moment. WHich plane do they go on? If you answer the latter, then the radiation from the WX radar has probably gotten you a little on the cooky side. If you answer the former, then your point is moot. Next case...

FYI - Scab is a term that doesn't just apply to those who cross the picket line. It applies to a person that crosses the group as a whole and disrupts the synergy of the pilot group. You do that, and you might as well be black listed.


About SWA - they have a limit to meet called "minimums." Those guys put their time in and deserve what they earned. In the words of George W....make no mistake! They all have PIC time and a heap of hours.

 

[beech1900kid]

This is serious, stearn, and a little kinky......how can I get in on this?

Snaps for the humor! lol

 

[BoilerUP]

Beech, you sound like one of many in the long line of people who are bitter about the fact some low-time pilots are able to get on with 121 carriers. This is despite the fact that if they get hired and make to the line, they have passed the same indoc, systems test, and sim checkride that every other FO has, regardless of their hours. If a 600 hour guy who bought a type rating and a 2500 hour freight dog both make it through 121 training, they are pilots of equal demonstrated ability in the eyes of the FAA and the airline with which they are employed.

You also neglect to mention that many airlines that hire low-time pilots do so out of flow-through or ab-initio programs that teach that particular company's procedures. These new hires with low time typically can't upgrade until at least 3000 TT, so the company will be able to get a maximum out of their training dollar and when said FO finally does upgrade, he/she will have a ton of experience on that aircraft and will be very prepared for what might come their way.

I don't understand why anybody with zero time in type and less than ATP minimums would want a CRJ type, and I would never PFT to "fly a jet" because I think doing so is detrimental to career pilots everywhere. However, just because they did doesn't make them SCABS.

I had a 121 pilot tell me one time that other pilots would call me a SCAB if I got hired on with lower-than-published minimum times. I figured he was just a 25 year old that didn't know what he was talking about, then I read Flying the Line and knew I was right. Carelessly calling somebody a SCAB ain't such a smart thing to do...

And by your own definition, the SWA guys may have "PIC time and a whole heap of hours" but they still paid for a type, therefore PFT'd and therefore are "scabs".

Or does that just apply to people that don't have an ATP yet?