Runway heading

[Lrjtcaptain]

Nope, you fly the heading that is published on the chart. Just look on the airport diagram...you do have it open, right?

But you're right, it's about flying a heading, not a track. If ATC wanted us to TRACK a runway center line after takeoff, there would be a procedure for us to do that, such as a SID.

Runway heading is just that, the magnetic heading designated for that piece of pavement.

Pretty simple stuff.

close enough....I was making a point as to you fly the heading of the runway, I didn't realize I had to be so specific.....********************, maybe I have to go back to OKC for some more training...

 

[JECKEL]

This is what I have found intriguing.

Bluegrass Departure off 18L in CVG. Says fly 184 HEADING to the 1.5 DME off ICIZ then a left turn to 165 Heading, radar vector etc etc.

The departure also sites a waypoint that is 1.5 DME off the ICIZ loc as DRUSS. So if you draw a line extending the runway centerline to a distance of 1.5 DME off ICIZ there sits DRUSS. DRUSS is the turning point right? So I just NAV to DRUSS and make my turn ... pretty simple. (It's also in the FMS as part of the departure)

But if you have a 20 knot wind out of the West, flying a 184 Heading as the Departure calls for will leave you East of the DRUSS waypoint.

So what I'm getting to is ... why the waypoint? Why is DRUSS even on the Jepp? The procedure is to fly a heading, not a course to a waypoint. I guess it would be wrong to "fly' to DRUSS.

Any thoughts?

 

[Baronman]

I think the difference lies in an aircraft departing IFR on a SID etc and a VFR aircraft.

Remember back when flying GA, when you were cleared for takeoff and there was a crosswind, you crabbed into the wind to maintain the extended centerline. Of course you rarely got an instruction such as "fly runway heading...cleared for TO." This was especially true when flying patterns at the airport, teaching wind correction to students.

Flying IFR however is different and I think you fly the published RWY HDG. There are cases especially in Canada where on missed approaches they'll ask you to fly the XXX degree track till 5.0 DME.

 

[murfdawg998]

Are you freaking kidding me? THREE SECONDS of searching the pilot/controller glossary will find you the answer. Wow.

Chuck you are the greatest pilot in the world. I need to know where you teach so I can get some dual from the Almighty Chuck; if you have any availability. Wow.

 

[CallmeJB]

This is what I have found intriguing.

Bluegrass Departure off 18L in CVG. Says fly 184 HEADING to the 1.5 DME off ICIZ then a left turn to 165 Heading, radar vector etc etc.

The departure also sites a waypoint that is 1.5 DME off the ICIZ loc as DRUSS. So if you draw a line extending the runway centerline to a distance of 1.5 DME off ICIZ there sits DRUSS. DRUSS is the turning point right? So I just NAV to DRUSS and make my turn ... pretty simple. (It's also in the FMS as part of the departure)

But if you have a 20 knot wind out of the West, flying a 184 Heading as the Departure calls for will leave you East of the DRUSS waypoint.

So what I'm getting to is ... why the waypoint? Why is DRUSS even on the Jepp? The procedure is to fly a heading, not a course to a waypoint. I guess it would be wrong to "fly' to DRUSS.

Any thoughts?

The Collins 4200 database has this departure built as a 184 vector to 1.5 DME, and then turn. As an alternative, you could just fly 184 until abeam DRUSS, and then turn. That's why the waypoint is there.

 

[JECKEL]

"The Collins 4200 database has this departure built as a 184 vector to 1.5 DME, and then turn. As an alternative, you could just fly 184 until abeam DRUSS, and then turn. That's why the waypoint is there."

The departure says fly HEADING 184 DEGREES not a 184 VECTOR.

Flying the 184 heading is not an alternative, it is the compliance to the departure.

Straight from the heads of our Training and Flight Standards Departments and the CVG Tower folks: You WILL fly the 184 degree heading to the 1.5 DME off the ICIZ then turn to 165.

The Collins 4200 seems to be in error here ... for the Bluegrass 18L that is. Now look at the new Churchill RNAV departure for 18L and you will see the reason for the DRUSS waypoint.

 

[CallmeJB]

Sorry for the confusion, but a 184 Heading and a 184 Vector are the same thing. I did not say 184 Track or that the course was heading 184. In our FMS database, a 184 Vector means just that; the NAV Mode will steer the aircraft to a HEADING of 184, just the same as if you were in HDG Mode.

Thanks for asking a question that you apparently already knew the anwer to, though. You asked for our thoughts and I gave them.

 

[j41driver]

This isn't any different than if you were at FL370 and they told you to fly a heading. You would fly the heading not a track, right? Same thing on t/o with the small difference being that you look at your Jepp chart to get the runway heading.

 

[JECKEL]

"Thanks for asking a question that you apparently already knew the answer to, though. You asked for our thoughts and I gave them."

What makes you think I know the answer? The question was, in case you forgot, "Why is DRUSS depicted on the Bluegrass Departure for 18L when the DP clearly says to fly a heading to a DME off the localizer then turn?"

I still don't know the answer.

And I never really cared what the Collins 4200 did or did not do.

 

[nosehair]

ATC only cares about aircraft seperation. All aircraft are operating in the airmass (the wind). As far as radar maps go, they're happy as long as all the aircraft are drifting in the same manner.

This is a point to consider; ATC cares only about aircraft seperation. Think about that, and consider how often you have been vectored on the same ILS intercept heading only to be blown inside the OM before intercepting final, or have you ever taken off in a light GA airplane in a 30 knot crosswind blowing inwards towards the parked aircraft and buildings and saw that "Runway Heading" was getting you scarily close to hitting something, so, IN THE INTEREST OF SAFETY, you crabbed a bit into the wind? Have you? I have.

I know what the book says. I know what controllers do. Both of us have to work together to make it come out right. I track centerline until I'm at circling mins, then I know it's ok to drift over the obstuctions. I am not going to "fly" into another airplane's space by being over the runway during Take-Off flying centerline. During the Take-Off phase, I am staying Over The Runway. When I reach circling minimums, then the Take-Off Phase is completed and I am on the initial climb, so I can turn to runway heading.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I recently read about this situation in "Flying" magazine.

At the end, they said you should fly a Track, for safety.

They said that the obstruction clearance and departure setup at the airport, for each runway, is based on flying over the departure end of the runway and beyond on centerline.

If you rotate early and fly the heading, you could be blown into an obstacle and crash if you're IMC and you have no visual references.

I think this should be addressed by the FAA, as there's obviously safety issues here.

It sounds like, legally, you're REQUIRED to fly the rwy HDG, which can make you dead in real life.

cliff
ILG

 

[Steeler Fan]

H320, H324, do you thing anyone really cares?

ATLANTA: triple departures-- RW 28, RW 27R, RW 26L. (From left to right)....

All have 272 deg for the actual runway heading--on the 10-9 page

But if the plane departing on 28 flies 280 deg, and the plane on right runway (26L) flies 260 deg mag,
eventually all 3 may meet at the same point (in theory).

..............Go Steelers!

 

[Say Again Over]

Align heading bug to nose of aircraft, advance power, it's not rocket science. Been based in ATL thanks.

 

[Hook 'Em Horns]

Atpcliff- An airport will have an ODP or SID if it would be possible to be blown into an obstacle. If you are IMC and meeting or exceeding the standard 200'/nm, 3.3% climb gradient, obstacle clearance is guaranteed (AIM 5-2-8). The need for a higher gradient will be published.

Many local controllers, and I assume this is coordinated with Departure, will adjust the normal assigned headings due to wind. Example: Departing off MDW 22L to the west over IOW, normally assigned heading of 250 on departure. If the wind is out of the south at 25-40 knots, they will probably adjust the heading to 240 so you won't encroach on ORD traffic.

 

[Dutch]

There are exceptions. KPRC tower had an agreement with the local flight schools a few years back that stated the term "fly runway heading" was the same as maintain runway centerline. This was a departure from the norm though.