ROTC, OTS, and which branch?

[payola]

As far as the Marine Corps, I would not have a problem at all. But I have a few friends who joined up and lost their jobs because they needed infantry. Does anyone know about the Marines flight program and the chances I would have of getting into a fighter?

I'm willing to bet there's more to the story than that. There are a few ways to lose your flight slot, if you don't hold up your end of the contract (poor choice of words on my part earlier calling it a guarantee) the Marine Corps won't hold up theirs. You fail the flight physical, or fail any portion of flight training you can have your slot yanked. Of course there are other ways-most of them rooted in being a poor officer. Or you can just decide you don't want to do it anymore. As foreign as the concept might seem, there are a ton of people who join the Marine Corps with SNA/SNFO contracts, then at TBS decide they want a ground job. Besides, the Marine Corps doesn't need infantry in the context you used it in. There are more officers at TBS who want to be infantry officers than there are slots at IOC (at least in the last few years). Every TBS class people get their hearts broken because they did not get infantry.

As far as getting fighters, all we have is the F/A-18. We have Cs, Ds, and I believe there are still some A models floating around out there. Navy has supers (Es and Fs) but we don't. The majority of our fleet is helos. So if your heart burns to fly fighters, mathematically we ain't the best choice.

Edit: That doesn't mean that you won't have a ground job. You could also end up as a FAC-forward air controller. They go out with the infantry and call in air strikes. But that's a B-billet for pilots/NFOs and typically lasts 12-18 months. Anyway, we do flight contracts for our NROTC, PLC, and OCC commissioning sources. Ask 'em if you got 'em.

 

[skycaptain11]

my bad, see below, sorry for the two post

 

[skycaptain11]

I guess I really didn't mean worthless "worthless". A good experience if you are willing to take the chance of not getting a pilot slot. Kids that are finished field training are not even getting their commision into the USAF upon graduation! 2-4 years of hard work for nothing. As far as pilot slots go it is the most competitive, most every kid I was in AFROTC with wanted to fly. The officers where very helpful but they can only get you so far. You must score high on the AFOQT, the BAT, and be in the top of your class even to be considered for selection by the pilot board. Once they couldn't guarentee me anything after I scored high on the AFOQT, I got out. If you know a General Good luck to you, that should have some pull. Good luck

N

 

[payola]

most every kid I was in AFROTC with wanted to fly...You must score high on the AFOQT, the BAT, and be in the top of your class even to be considered for selection by the pilot board.

Some of our AFROTC seniors explained it to me like this:
Everybody shows up freshman year wanting to be a pilot. Then they figure out how competitive it is (like you said). So by junior or senior year, whenever they do their service selection or whatever it's called, there are only a few diehards who still want to be and are competitive enough to be selected for pilot.
Our Air Force unit across the hall always touted some really high percentage, in the nineties I believe, of people who ask for pilot who get it. What they failed to ever mention was the really high percentage of people who somewhere along the way decide to 'settle' for something different.

Navy option NROTC doesn't guarantee aviation either. Someone else will have to speak for the Army. Marines definitely do aviation contracts. Of course, not everybody's in tune with the things we do, so, it's a choice each person has to make...

 

[skycaptain11]

Our Air Force unit across the hall always touted some really high percentage, in the nineties I believe

90 sounds a high but it could be true for certain schools. Like you said people do change their minds about being a pilot in the military. All I am saying is the Air Force ROTC does not guarentee anything when it comes to the person who is a diehard about becoming an aviator.

However, your are correct, there are guarenteed flight slots upon sucessful completion of OCS for every branch of the military. Its hit or miss with every branch, they just have a quota to meet like every other business. I'm not bashing ROTC, it was a good experience, just wish that had a guarentee.

 

[Draginass]

Boris - You need to approach this thing in the right frame of mind. The primary motivator should be to serve your country and not for some selfish reason that your country should let you fly a fighter aircraft, "or the deals off." Wanting to fly fighters is great. Having career desires and goals is great, but don't let it overshadow the prime objective. Be sure you're willing to cope with demands of military life. It's not Tom Cruise and Hollywood BS. It's deadly serious business. I spend 22 years in the USAF and can't count on two hands the number of friends/aquaintances that have been killed just in aircraft accidents, many leaving behind wives, children, and fiancees (probably even worse in the Navy due to the inherently more dangerous training and operational environment). Make sure you can deal with the long and frequent deployments (especially Navy). Also, there's no guarantee that you'll get an F-22, F-15, or F-16. You could get a bomber, or transport/tanker, depending on the needs of the USAF, and your UPT class ranking. Just because you have a pilot's license now, doesn't mean you'll necessarily do well in formation and go fighter track.

Your desire to "go where the fight is" is admirable and shows great spirit. However, the "fight" these days is in a lot of places that F-15s don't go.

Being a little short on cash and with some college credit behind you, I would think a 2 yr ROTC scholarship would be the way to go. I was on a 4 yr scholarship (albeit 30 years ago) that paid all tuition and books, plus a living stipend every month. I think it's still similar now. Although I wanted an A-10 coming out of UPT, but instead got a KC-135 (great assignment) and later went to the initial cadre of B-1s when then came into the inventory. Had a great career. So, don't get zero'd in on fighters to the point that it's the be-all, end-all. Lots of really great missions and airplanes in the services.

Here's a link to a list of aviation colleges, but not necessarily with ROTC detachments. You'd have to check individual schools.

www.aapilots.com/public/flash/mentoring.asp?content_id=1280

Best of luck. There's nothing like the feeling of having your girl pin your Air Force or Naval Aviator wings on you.

 

[SIG600]

So can a fighter pilot in the guard make enough if he is only flying part time? If there such a thing as fighter bumming? According to Jim this is yes.

Are you able to NOT thread jack someone else's thread? 1/3 of the posts on here are answering your questions, that are irrelivant to what Boris is asking.

I don't think I can really come up with the money to pay for myself to go to embry riddle or another aviation school (I'm sticking with my major) out of pocket so unless I find a scholarship, it looks like ROTC and hopefully a scholarship is going to be the way I have to go.

Don't sweat it man. While I enjoyed my time at Humpty Diddles School of Poverty... there's a lot to be said for graduating without any student loan debt. It's a good education, but for the route you wanna go, it won't get you there any faster than a good state school with an ROTC scholarship. Seriously consider the Navy's BDCP program. With your credits you're eligible, and sound competitive. You'll get paid while you're in school, and when you get commisioned your time in service counts. You'll be commissioned an O-1 w/ 2 or 3 years service and a full account of leave = $$$$$$!!!! Your desire to fly fighters isn't arrogant... you just gotta be ready to enjoy something else if the week you select the needs of the service put you in something else. And you never know, you may find out later in the training pipeline that something else sounds better. I know a lot of guys that wanted jets, and after some exposure to guys (instructors) from other communites, wound up putting something else first choice. And despite what everyone says about percentages in different services for jet selection chances... I'm convinced there is no gaming the system. Decide if you want to fly for the Air Force or the Navy/Marine Corps. Both have their pluses and minuses (we do cooler stuff though! ) And then shoot for a jet slot from there.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Edit: PS> Does anyone know where I can find a list of ROTC programs that offer aviation (not engineering) as a major?

The ROTC program itself is not a degree, nor does the program itself offer/ require specific degrees. You need to find a college that has an ROTC program. You can major in ANY degree that college has to offer. ROTC does not require you to major in any specific degree at all. ROTC simply requires you to take some specific classes, most of which count as an elective toward whatever your degree is - such as aviation.

Also, some colleges have, I believe it is called, cross-training, or something like that. Meaning, the college you are attending may not have ROTC, but another nearby college may have it. You can participate in the ROTC program with the other college, while still attending your current one and majoring in aviation.

My advice would be to contact your current college and inquire about ROTC, and any programs nearby you could participate in, if your currrent college does not have the program.

 

[psysicx]

I didn't hijack this thread. Its good to understand all of your options.

 

[hindsight2020]

Being a little short on cash and with some college credit behind you, I would think a 2 yr ROTC scholarship would be the way to go. I was on a 4 yr scholarship (albeit 30 years ago) that paid all tuition and books, plus a living stipend every month. I think it's still similar now. Although I wanted an A-10 coming out of UPT, but instead got a KC-135 (great assignment) and later went to the initial cadre of B-1s when then came into the inventory. Had a great career. So, don't get zero'd in on fighters to the point that it's the be-all, end-all. Lots of really great missions and airplanes in the services.

With all due respect to your vast experience and what seems an outstanding and successful career, you can't scold this kid's valuation for wanting a fighter, because his chances of being able to replicate your own assignment history under the new tracking system is 0.000001%. You had the benefit of cross-flow, he will not. Ever since the T-1, you can kiss your fast-mover aspirations good bye forever if you don't track 38s. Some of us consider that reality to be unwarranted, when clearly there are examples, like yours, that prove that cross-flows worked. So, it's not the same yardstick being used.

Other than that, I agree with you about keeping perspective about the values that are important when considering a long pilot career in the AF.

 

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

Ever since the T-1, you can kiss your fast-mover aspirations good bye forever if you don't track 38s.

With all due respect to your lack of experience, a program existed a short time ago which provided for T-1 trained bomber pilots. Yes, the program is over, but the point is that things change. So the advice to find happiness in what you end up doing long-term stands.

 

[Draginass]

With all due respect to your vast experience and what seems an outstanding and successful career, you can't scold this kid's valuation for wanting a fighter, because his chances of being able to replicate your own assignment history under the new tracking system is 0.000001%. You had the benefit of cross-flow, he will not. Ever since the T-1, you can kiss your fast-mover aspirations good bye forever if you don't track 38s. Some of us consider that reality to be unwarranted, when clearly there are examples, like yours, that prove that cross-flows worked. So, it's not the same yardstick being used.

Other than that, I agree with you about keeping perspective about the values that are important when considering a long pilot career in the AF.

No scold intended in any way. Just some advice on realism and perspective. As you and I pointed out, there are no guarantees on what aircraft you'll get out of UPT. There never was except for ANG/Res. Cross-flow, even during my tenure was rare, and as point of fact, I did not ask to go to fast movers . . I was drafted in the initial cadre of B-1s. The point is, if you're convinced that you'll be absolutely unhappy with anything other than an "F" airplane (other than the F-117 since it's really a light bomber), then you need to re-examine why your there. When I got a KC-135 out of UPT, I was disappointed since I wanted a combat mission, but then it turned out to be one of my best assignments being assigned to a squadron dedicated to refueling the SR-71. Great mission, great TDYs. Also, I don't consider anyone potentially entering the USAF officer corps a "kid." They're men and leaders, that's how I treated the my junior officers.

Best of luck in your future career. When I retired, I did so with complete ease of mind because I knew the quality of the junior officers in my unit. They didn't need me any longer. They were smart, dedicated, and great aviators and leaders.

 

[Gunfighter]

No scold intended in any way. Just some advice on realism and perspective. As you and I pointed out, there are no guarantees on what aircraft you'll get out of UPT. There never was except for ANG/Res.

Even in the ANG there are no guarantees, just a very strong likelyhood. In my class we had one guard guy who struggled in T-37s and went the T-1 track even though he was from a fighter unit. His unit leadership worked to find him a heavy slot in another unit rather than risk his entire career.

I also know of guard guys who would have gone the tanker/transport route if they were active duty based on T-37 rankings, but because they were from a figher unit, they went to the T-38 and ultimately washed out of the program.

The ANG/Res "guarantee" can be a double edged sword.

 

[malterf15]

Back to the original question:

Dude. If you want to fly military airplanes, join the Air Force any way you can.
Every other service's air mission is a tangent.
If you can get to ENJJPT (which has nothing to do with your flying ability) you have an 80-85% chance of getting a fighter (vs 20% at SUPT). And it's easier than SUPT.
Everyone's right that the guard is the best deal of all.

 

[hindsight2020]

With all due respect to your lack of experience, a program existed a short time ago which provided for T-1 trained bomber pilots. Yes, the program is over, but the point is that things change. So the advice to find happiness in what you end up doing long-term stands.

I wasn't being sarcastic when I said 'with all due respect', I was being sincere about acknowledging his background and experience before making my remark. As it pertains to the T-1 issue, I stand corrected (and yes I was aware bombers, particularly the -52, dropped from the T-1 in the not so distant past, for a short time). I'm not making any qualitative judgement on the skill of anybody, I'm just stating the unlikely nature of such a cross-flow given the current system.

As for my lack of experience, gimme the benefit of a year chief, we can share notes again when I get to the FTU if it makes you feel better.

... Cross-flow, even during my tenure was rare, and as point of fact, I did not ask to go to fast movers . . I was drafted in the initial cadre of B-1s.

Very interesting point. I must admit that throughout the discussion I did not obtain positive knowledge of exactly how many people actually got to cross-flow in the old system, which perhaps trivializes the issue of a T-1 hampering one's ability to cross-flow under the new tracking system.

The point is, if you're convinced that you'll be absolutely unhappy with anything other than an "F" airplane (other than the F-117 since it's really a light bomber), then you need to re-examine why your there. When I got a KC-135 out of UPT, I was disappointed since I wanted a combat mission, but then it turned out to be one of my best assignments being assigned to a squadron dedicated to refueling the SR-71. Great mission, great TDYs.

Once again, totally agree.

Also, I don't consider anyone potentially entering the USAF officer corps a "kid." They're men and leaders, that's how I treated the my junior officers.

I tend to use the term 'kid' more generally than average, so I apologize about not using a more proper term; I did not intend to misrepresent the tone of your original post as it pertained to the original poster. And you're correct, you did not address him in a lessening quality at any point in your reply.

Tailwinds

 

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

As for my lack of experience, gimme the benefit of a year chief, we can share notes again when I get to the FTU if it makes you feel better.

No problem, buddy.

 

[LeadSolo]

I don't think I can really come up with the money to pay for myself to go to embry riddle or another aviation school (I'm sticking with my major) out of pocket so unless I find a scholarship, it looks like ROTC and hopefully a scholarship is going to be the way I have to go.

As far as the Marine Corps, I would not have a problem at all. But I have a few friends who joined up and lost their jobs because they needed infantry. Does anyone know about the Marines flight program and the chances I would have of getting into a fighter?

Long time reader, first post, so take this for what it's worth...

I didn't have the money, either. Picked up a three year ROTC scholarship to pay for school. I went with the Marine Option (more on that later) and it is the best deal going.
You DO NOT need to go to Embry-Riddle or any other over-priced (IMHO) aviation school. There are plenty of fighter pilots on the Marine Corps side of the house with degrees in Music, Art, Communications (not that there is anything wrong with that). What I'm trying to get at, is that a 4-year degree in basket-weaving counts as much in flight school as engineering. It doesn't matter. As long as you perform in flight training, you'll get through. It may help to have an advanced degree, but I cannot attest to that!
A bunch of civilian time being an advantage coming into flight school is debatable. I started with nadda, zip, and wondered what the heck I got myself into on the first take-off roll in the mighty T-34. I made it by and earned my wings. The students with prior time did really well in primary training, don't get me wrong. Where I saw the difference was in jet training. A few of the "high-time" bubbas got so used to not having to study, or prepare as much for their flights, they took that attitude with jet training. Needless to say, they were attrited. I am not categorizing everyone with civilian time in that category, however.
As far as the Marine aviation contract goes, I have never heard of a contract being taken away because the Marine Corps needed more infantry bubbas. That is simply not true. I am in a position now that I work with every Marine coming into flight training on a daily basis, and I have never heard of that happening. Some guys have volunteered to drop their contract and go infantry, but that is it. The Marine Corps is the only service (last I knew) that will allow you to sign an aviation contract prior to commissioning. I was a freshman in college when I signed up. Quite a relief to know that if you graduate college you are going to get a shot at flight school. This removes the extremely competitive slots for aviation from your plate.
As far as a shot at fighters, the Marine Corps averages about 330 pilots produced a year. Of that roughly 200 to helos, 100 to jets, 15 to C-130s, and 15 to V-22s. If you finish #1 in your class you get your choice!
Fight's On!

 

[SIG600]

The Marine Corps is the only service (last I knew) that will allow you to sign an aviation contract prior to commissioning. I was a freshman in college when I signed up. Quite a relief to know that if you graduate college you are going to get a shot at flight school. This removes the extremely competitive slots for aviation from your plate.

The Navy does too. When you apply for an OCS slot, you're applying for your job. Pilot, NFO, SWO, whatever. Hence why I was advocating the BDCP program. Get your pilot slot two years in advance, and get paid the whole time you're finishing college.
The Marine PLC program seems like a good deal too. Split up OCS into two summers, go to TBS after commisioning, and you've had your air contract the entire time. I have known a few guys that had an air contract going to TBS, and I don't know if they drank too much of the Kool Aid or what but dropped their contract to be a combat eng., infantry, etc. I've talked to quite a few guys that said at TBS the air cont. guys get crap on... I guess because they don't have to compete or something.

 

[payola]

The Marine PLC program seems like a good deal too. Split up OCS into two summers

You can also do PLC-Combined and knock out OCS in one 10 week summer session. That second trip to OCS...yeah, not the greatest time ever.

 

[talondriver]

Very interesting point. I must admit that throughout the discussion I did not obtain positive knowledge of exactly how many people actually got to cross-flow in the old system, which perhaps trivializes the issue of a T-1 hampering one's ability to cross-flow under the new tracking system.

I don't think the AF thinks the way you do. It has EVERYTHING to do with your training background. Those who crossflowed were T-38 trained (squawk-ident if you're a T-1 trained pilot flying fighters). The AF is very good at stamping your destiny on your fore-cranium when you're a baby pilot. That's unfortunate...like the AF buying the T-1.

The best people to ask are the T-38 PIT dudes at Randolph since they do the jet qual for pilots going back to fast movers.